What's wrong with Matt Bonner

[ElNono]

It was 45% (37% was for the playoffs).

You're right. Still, I think we can agree that asking for a consistent 50+% is asking for too much.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Bonner's line last night:

16:52
2-5 3 pointers, 2-2 FT, 8 points
team +9 when on the court
5 rebs, 1 O 4 D

Really not a bad line for someone who is "a liability on the court".

Plus Sean Elliott had good things to say about his rebounding. And he did the after-time-out diagramming of a play where the Spurs scored on a layup because the guy guarding Bonner (Hakeem Warrick I think) had to get out of the paint to guard against the kickout to Bonner at the 3 point line.

This is EXACTLY what I've been talking about in other threads. The guy is not a starter on most teams, but he does contribute in ways that often don't show up on the stat sheet.

Oh and I found this too, in the postgame quotes:

Suns forward Grant Hill:

(On what they can do on defense to limit the other team)

“We had been doing well defensively and offensively we weren’t at our best. Going into tonight’s game, they put a lot of pressure on you. Defensively, I think we could’ve made a couple changes here and there, such as not leaving Bonner to make an open three and things like that. For the most part it wasn’t too bad as offensively we are just not in a good rhythm and groove yet as hopefully that will come sooner then later.”

Illustrates exactly what I've been saying that Bonner stretches the other team's defense and makes them account for him or pay the price.

[GSH]

Bonner is playing right to his ability. He is a good three point shooter when no one is near him because he shoots the ball so low. He has virtuality no hops or mobility so you get what you get. He is what he is. Anything more than 7-8 minutes per game is a waste.

I was waiting for someone to say that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that he did not used to shoot the ball as flat as he is right now. Here's how:

A number of the really world-class shooting coaches say that, on its way to the basket, a shot should travel at least as high as the top of the backboard. (Anyone who knows the game knows that the hoop gets much bigger for a shot that is travelling downward, rather than being flat.) I started watching for that. One of the things I saw was that Matt Bonner was the only player on the Spurs who shot the ball that way. I started pointing it out to people I watch games with. Once they started watching, they were blown away by how high Bonner shot the ball - especially compared to the rest of the players on the team.

I'm telling you - Bonner's shot arc is something I watched carefully, over an extended period of time. (Coincidence) Not only that, I observed and discussed it with other people, so I'm pretty sure it's not just bias on my part. And his shot used to be much higher than it is now. The change came when he returned from that knee injury.

I know a lot of you just hate Bonner - maybe he's earned it. But those of you who know anything about shot mechanics should understand that this leg-scissor stance he's using is going to result in a flat shot that, as a result, rattles out a lot. Ask yourself why a really successful 3-point shooter would suddenly alter his fundamentals like that.

We can argue about how quick his release is, or used to be. (Sean Elliott commented many times on-air about Matt's quick release. But what does he know about shooting?) I don't think he releases it as quick as he used to, but that also is a product of getting into that bizarre stance. But even if you won't be convinced about his release, the guy is still 6'10" tall. A guy that tall is going to get some extra shots off from the arc, just because he can shoot over the guys coming out to contest - even if his release isn't quick.

Some of you are going to be polarized about every player - they're either all good or all bad. Nothing will change that. But I can tell you that the Bonner we're seeing on the court isn't the same one that we saw before the injury. And his shooting mechanic has changed - for the worse. I don't see a guy with a really sweet stroke deciding to butcher it for no reason.

-----

Here's one more thing. I dug up an article from last season, where he talks aobut the injury. (I'm posting a clip, and a link below.) In it, he says that the knee still hurts when he crouches. But luckily, he says, he doesn't go that low to shoot. My point: Maybe he should. I think he quit using his legs (correctly) to shoot, because of the knee.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...m-knee-injury/
Bonner describes the pain in his knee as a sharp, shooting ache — “like being stabbed with a knife,” he says. It comes and goes quickly when he makes certain sudden movements.

The knee most bothers Bonner when he puts excess weight on it, such as when he makes a cut, crouches to block out for a rebound or loads up to jump. It doesn’t bother him when he shoots.

“Luckily, I don’t get that low to shoot,” Bonner said.

Before the injury, Bonner was enjoying his best professional season, averaging 7.6 points and shooting a team-leading 50.4 percent from 3-point range, a figure good for second in the NBA.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I agree with what you said but I think the poster you replied to was talking about Bonner's release point on the shot, not the height of the shot arc.

[Mel_13]

Good work, GSH.

It's rather a thankless job to put together a thoughtful analysis about a player who generates such an emotional response, but there are some who appreciate the effort.

[TJastal]

This much is clear. Dude needs to hit the bench for an extended R&R. If his knee really is bothering him that much, he's just flat out lying that it isn't affecting the way he shoots.

[Spur|n|Austin]

This much is clear. Dude needs to hit the bench for an extended R&R. If his knee really is bothering him that much, he's just flat out lying that it isn't affecting the way he shoots.

Agreed, he was hurting us already; an injured Bonner is definitely a liability, obviously more so than a healthy one..

[Brazil]

Good work, GSH.

It's rather a thankless job to put together a thoughtful analysis about a player who generates such an emotional response, but there are some who appreciate the effort.

+1

I was wondering myself what was going on with him... something doesn't look okay. I asked in same game blog if somebody had an explanation, yours seem very plausible GSH. that's good stuff I enjoy reading you !

[ElNono]

Don't get me started on the rebounding...

There's only 2 active players 6'10 and up in the entire league getting consistent minutes and averaging less than 3 boards per game. He is one of them.

[Brazil]

Don't get me started on the rebounding...

There's only 2 active players 6'10 and up in the entire league getting consistent minutes and averaging less than 3 boards per game. He is one of them.

still he is rebounding D reb better than blair

[ElNono]

still he is rebounding D reb better than blair

Blair is short. He actually has an excuse

[intlspurshk]

At this point, I strongly support giving Bonner 20 mins per game. I hate Bonner. But obviously playing Splitter / KL more than 30 mins a game under the current schedule will make them hit the rookie wall sometimes before playoff. I don't want to see the whole team to be gased at playoff. It's ok to be the 6th or 7th seed as long as the team is healthy and doesn't peak too soon. And it helps to get a better draft next year.

[timvp]

Don't get me started on the rebounding...

There's only 2 active players 6'10 and up in the entire league getting consistent minutes and averaging less than 3 boards per game. He is one of them.

Bonner's rebounding is actually improved this season. His rebounding rate is the same as Dirk Nowitzki and he's grabbing more defensive rebounds than LaMarcus Aldridge. Given Bonner's rebounding decline in recent years, his improvement on the boards this year is pretty surprising. He's still pretty bad but he has some good company at least.

[ElNono]

Bonner's rebounding is actually improved this season. His rebounding rate is the same as Dirk Nowitzki and he's grabbing more defensive rebounds than LaMarcus Aldridge. Given Bonner's rebounding decline in recent years, his improvement on the boards this year is pretty surprising. He's still pretty bad but he has some good company at least.

The problem is that more minutes don't normally extrapolate to more rebounds for Matt. I would have to dig the games where he played more than 20 mins, but I'm fairly sure I remember a few 30 mins games from the playoffs where he was abysmal.

Right now, his average is tied for worst in his career (2.8). I did notice he picked it up the last couple of games so that might change, but for being 6-10 he's always been a fairly poor rebounder.

[Mel_13]

The problem is that more minutes don't normally extrapolate to more rebounds for Matt. I would have to dig the games where he played more than 20 mins, but I'm fairly sure I remember a few 30 mins games from the playoffs where he was abysmal.

Right now, his average is tied for worst in his career (2.8). I did notice he picked it up the last couple of games so that might change, but for being 6-10 he's always been a fairly poor rebounder.

I'd love to sit down and watch a Spurs game with you someday. Just to see your reactions every time the ginger is in the frame.

[SenorSpur]

I appreciate the work that GSH put into this post on Bonner. I read it thoroughly, but I remain nonplussed. Yes, Bonner does get bashed a lot around here, but let's not pretend that it's unjustified. It's just really hard for me to muster up any empathy or understanding for a player, who is a one-trick pony, who instantly makes the Spurs a defensively-inferior team the minute he steps onto the court, and one who regularly breathes life into opposing players by allowing them gain great confidence against him.

So what if Bonner occasionally "shoots 50% of his 3's and bringing down some boards"? The operative word here is occasionally. The rest of the time his shooting is inconsistent. He's also a poor rebounder, a terrible defender and he simply lacks the skills necessary for a rotation big on this team. What good is it to have a single skill set, when you're not mentally tough and you're inconsistent? And the unkindest cut of all about Bonner, he chokes repeatedly in pressure situations and annually in the playoffs.

If Duncan were still in his prime and could still carry the team or if Blair were 6'10", Bonner's deficiencies wouldn't be so glaring. However, that's not the case. This Spurs team is starving for more help on the frontline and Bonner simply has never been able to provide what the the Spurs have needed out of that position. It's mostly Pop's fault for becoming so heavily dependent upon him - in the post Robert Horry era - albeit with continuous sample of diminishing returns.

Some here may think Bonner is good to have on the floor. However I would submit to anyone that, because of his inferior skill set, his defensive liabilities and his repeated playoff failings, he's not worth even having on the roster.

[lefty]

[GSH]

I appreciate the work that GSH put into this post on Bonner. I read it thoroughly, but I remain nonplussed. Yes, Bonner does get bashed a lot around here, but let's not pretend that it's unjustified. It's just really hard for me to muster up any empathy or understanding for a player, who is a one-trick pony, who instantly makes the Spurs a defensively-inferior team the minute he steps onto the court, and one who regularly breathes life into opposing players by allowing them gain great confidence against him.

Echhh... can't argue with most of that. Like I said, before the injury, he was probably playing the best ball of his career. At that point, he was a plus to the roster. (Even on ST, the comments were very positive.)

I believe there's something wrong with that right knee still. If that's the case, then you have to wonder if he's discussed it with the Spurs staff. Maybe worried about the next contract? Maybe just wanting to get back in the game and help the team? Maybe they know, and there's nothing to do about it, but play him limited minutes.

About the shooting stroke, though - if he can go back to his old mechanics, and start hitting 3's more like he used to, he'll be worth a LOT more when he is on the floor. If his knee is messed up, and he can't shoot any other way? There should probably be some discussion of a disability retirement. Something has changed. Either he can fix it, or he can't. But it looks pretty obvious to me that things changed when he got injured. That was really the point of the whole thing.

[ElNono]

I'd love to sit down and watch a Spurs game with you someday. Just to see your reactions every time the ginger is in the frame.

You don't want to know

Probably goes along these lines:




Frankly, I get too emotionally invested in the whole team and should scale it back a notch or two

[cantthinkofanything]

LMAO. Underrated jpeg you ers.

[angelbelow]

I just wish we still had Mcdyess or another capable big because I'm tired of watching Bonner play. But again, I hope hes okay because we simply cannot afford an injury right now.

Bonner's been coming in for Blair but I really want to see Splitter and Duncan together for once.

[silverblk mystix]

I was waiting for someone to say that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that he did not used to shoot the ball as flat as he is right now. Here's how:

A number of the really world-class shooting coaches say that, on its way to the basket, a shot should travel at least as high as the top of the backboard. (Anyone who knows the game knows that the hoop gets much bigger for a shot that is travelling downward, rather than being flat.) I started watching for that. One of the things I saw was that Matt Bonner was the only player on the Spurs who shot the ball that way. I started pointing it out to people I watch games with. Once they started watching, they were blown away by how high Bonner shot the ball - especially compared to the rest of the players on the team.

I'm telling you - Bonner's shot arc is something I watched carefully, over an extended period of time. (Coincidence) Not only that, I observed and discussed it with other people, so I'm pretty sure it's not just bias on my part. And his shot used to be much higher than it is now. The change came when he returned from that knee injury.

I know a lot of you just hate Bonner - maybe he's earned it. But those of you who know anything about shot mechanics should understand that this leg-scissor stance he's using is going to result in a flat shot that, as a result, rattles out a lot. Ask yourself why a really successful 3-point shooter would suddenly alter his fundamentals like that.

We can argue about how quick his release is, or used to be. (Sean Elliott commented many times on-air about Matt's quick release. But what does he know about shooting?) I don't think he releases it as quick as he used to, but that also is a product of getting into that bizarre stance. But even if you won't be convinced about his release, the guy is still 6'10" tall. A guy that tall is going to get some extra shots off from the arc, just because he can shoot over the guys coming out to contest - even if his release isn't quick.

Some of you are going to be polarized about every player - they're either all good or all bad. Nothing will change that. But I can tell you that the Bonner we're seeing on the court isn't the same one that we saw before the injury. And his shooting mechanic has changed - for the worse. I don't see a guy with a really sweet stroke deciding to butcher it for no reason.

-----

Here's one more thing. I dug up an article from last season, where he talks aobut the injury. (I'm posting a clip, and a link below.) In it, he says that the knee still hurts when he crouches. But luckily, he says, he doesn't go that low to shoot. My point: Maybe he should. I think he quit using his legs (correctly) to shoot, because of the knee.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...m-knee-injury/
Bonner describes the pain in his knee as a sharp, shooting ache — “like being stabbed with a knife,” he says. It comes and goes quickly when he makes certain sudden movements.

The knee most bothers Bonner when he puts excess weight on it, such as when he makes a cut, crouches to block out for a rebound or loads up to jump. It doesn’t bother him when he shoots.

“Luckily, I don’t get that low to shoot,” Bonner said.

Before the injury, Bonner was enjoying his best professional season, averaging 7.6 points and shooting a team-leading 50.4 percent from 3-point range, a figure good for second in the NBA.

ummm...nice writing and research and you make some points...but.....






[B]WHO GIVES A ?

He just plain sucks...you can paint it any in' color you want but in the end....he just in' sux...and EVERY IN' MINUTE THAT- THIS MOTHER ER IS ON THE MOTHER IN' FLOOR ---

HE IS TAKING MINUTES AWAY FROM A DESERVING PLAYER....FROM A PLAYER WHO WON'T IN' HURT THE MOTHER IN' SPURS TEAM....




WHAT KIND OF IN' RESEARCH AND LENGTHY IN ARTICLES HAVE TO BE WRITTEN,ANALYZED & DEBATED BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT






HE JUST IN SUX???????

[SenorSpur]

Echhh... can't argue with most of that. Like I said, before the injury, he was probably playing the best ball of his career. At that point, he was a plus to the roster. (Even on ST, the comments were very positive.)

I believe there's something wrong with that right knee still. If that's the case, then you have to wonder if he's discussed it with the Spurs staff. Maybe worried about the next contract? Maybe just wanting to get back in the game and help the team? Maybe they know, and there's nothing to do about it, but play him limited minutes.

About the shooting stroke, though - if he can go back to his old mechanics, and start hitting 3's more like he used to, he'll be worth a LOT more when he is on the floor. If his knee is messed up, and he can't shoot any other way? There should probably be some discussion of a disability retirement. Something has changed. Either he can fix it, or he can't. But it looks pretty obvious to me that things changed when he got injured. That was really the point of the whole thing.

I get what you're saying. And I applaud you for even noticing these minute details regarding Bonner. For me personally, I just try to ignore him when he's on the court, so there's no way I would've been aware of what you've witnessed. Again, I appreciate your bringing this up.

One never wants to see a player injured and I would certainly never wish that on a player or person. Yet, I will say this: I do find myself counting the days until Bonner is off this roster permanently. If this knee situation is such that it expedites his exit, so be it.

[GSH]

I get what you're saying. And I applaud you for even noticing these minute details regarding Bonner. For me personally, I just try to ignore him when he's on the court, so there's no way I would've been aware of what you've witnessed. Again, I appreciate your bringing this up.

You made me laugh. Sounds like it's a choice between ignoring him completely, and your head exploding. I think you're making the right choice.

[Duncan2177]

If Matt is having a problem it's time to get Wallace.