Biggest waste of talent in NBA history?

[JamStone]

Agree to disagree, I suppose.. our criteria are simply much different.

Those with the most talent who did not utilize it to the max deserve to be at the top of the list. I don't care about the supposed speculative disparity - if VC could've been the goat, but barely or doesn't crack the top 50, then he's easily at or near the top for me. Additionally, the amount of hype his incredible athleticism received most definitely factors in.

Conversely, random supposedly talented college kid who never did well for long at the pros means very little in my book. I'm swayed more by players such as VC, who did well at the highest levels but could have been the best. Which is exactly why Shaq doesn't belong anywhere near the same category as VC - he led a team to a 3pt, put up gaudy playoff numbers and was the best player in the league at least 1-2 years.

PS Pervis Ellison suffered lots of injuries and so IMHO would be disqualified from this discussion.

Fair enough with Ellison suffering injuries, although I don't believe injuries were the the only or biggest reason Ellison didn't become a much better player than he ended up being.

Just as you suggested that Shaq wasn't the type of player who wasted a lot of talent, I think similarly about Vince. Vince could have and should have accomplished more as a player. But it's not like he was a bum in his career or didn't ever come close to reaching his potential. Again, he still had a really good career and is a borderline HOFer based on his career numbers. And with Vince, it's only arguable that he could have gone down as a possible GOAT.

We could go down a list of names of players who at some point in their earlier careers were considered to have the potential to go down as all time greats, not just HOFers. Perhaps look at a guy like Stephon Marbury. He had the type of talent and game to go down as a top 5 PG of all time, maybe higher. He was Derrick Rose before Derrick Rose. He also had a pretty strong career statistically. Injuries weren't part of his demise. First, he couldn't stand being a second banana to KG to allow the Timberwolves to become an elite team. And while he would consistently put up big individual numbers, he failed to consistently make his teams better. And then he went crazy. He's more of a wasted talent to me than Vince. Or look at Glenn Robinson. Again, also put up some very good seasons and had a relatively good NBA career. When he entered the league, there were NBA experts and pundits talking about him being a HOFer even before he played a single game in the NBA. But he never really came close to reaching expectations despite putting up some good seasons. More of a wasted talent than Vince imo.

Could Vince have gone down as one of the greatest NBA players ever? Yeah, perhaps. But his career was still very good when you look at it. So I guess I just disagree that Vince should head the list or be at or near the top. Whether you think he was lazy or unmotivated or simply just never lived up to the hype, I think there are probably a lot more players who wasted more talent in their careers than him.

[JamStone]

Good call; Baron Davis may be the most athletic point guard I have ever seen, and no one lately other than CP3 can go into beast mode at Davis' level when he was motivated. That guy should have been MVP of the league at some point of his career.

Yeah, and I realize Baron has gone through his share of injuries. But I also view his injuries differently than guys like Grant Hill or Penny or Oden. Baron's injuries seem to be more directly with weight issues where he could have done something to either avoid or mitigate them. When a player like Baron could have done something to help prevent injuries, like Shaq, that's just as much on the player as it is the injury itself, as opposed to career ending or career altering injury like Hill and Oden where those players could have done very little to prevent them.

[z0sa]

Could Vince have gone down as one of the greatest NBA players ever? Yeah, perhaps. But his career was still very good when you look at it. So I guess I just disagree that Vince should head the list or be at or near the top. Whether you think he was lazy or unmotivated or simply just never lived up to the hype, I think there are probably a lot more players who wasted more talent in their careers than him.

Although I disagree about he and Shaq being in the same boat, I can definitely see your point here. It IS speculation that he could have been a GOAT candidate, but, so is this whole thread.

[JayTheClown]

PG - Steve Francis, Sebastian Telfair
SG - J.R. Smith, Isaiah Rider
SF - Tracy McGrady, Antoine Walker
PF - Tim Thomas, Rasheed Wallace
C - Roy Tarpley, Eddy Curry

Good lineup
I would put Isaiah starting over J.R imo.

[mavs>spurs]

man baron's back issues aren't because he was some fat lazy piece of . dude played best at that weight, he was still quick as yet big and strong enough to bully pg's. you don't dunk and play with the athleticism baron did if you're just some fatass who needed to lose weight and blame him for his injuries. some people are just prone to certain injuries like baron and tmac. it's a trajedy and for you to sit there and say he had something to do with it is stupid. I guess nfl running backs who are all 225+ should all get injured too. dumbass.

[mavs>spurs]

Baron had talent to be a top 10 pg of all time and his career was a trajedy really. But this isn't a guy who's so fat that he threw out his back to me



Dude was just built muscular.

[JamStone]

Baron would have still had a massive size and strength advantage at the PG position at 210. He ballooned up to 225+, probably more in some of those seasons. It didn't hurt his athleticism enough to make him not explosive. He was still explosive. You can be fat and still be athletic and explosive, like NFL defensive linemen. Shaun Rogers was one of the most explosive DT I've ever seen playing at 6'4 and 350+. But when you're that big, you will be prone to injury.

Baron could have done just as much damage if he stayed at a playing weight 10-15 pounds lighter than where he usually was, and it would have likely helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. I do believe that extra weight was related to his back issues.

[mavs>spurs]

DT's don't run and dunk like baron davis. There is a HUGE difference between being athletic and being explosive off the line for 2 yards. Big time fail. You can't be a fatass carrying around so much extra weight that it causes you to injure your back and do the things baron did on the court. Baron was all muscle and probably the most explosive player in the entire league before his injury.

[JamStone]

There were times where Baron Davis' weight wasn't a big issue. Earlier on in his career, mostly with the Hornets, he played probably closer to 210-215. Still had the size and strength advantage. But he did get fat later. That's when we saw him getting injured more and more.

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2010/08/2...nds.overweight

Davis, a Hall of Fame talent who’s spent half his career underachieving, can put L.A. in the playoffs if he’s engaged or in the dumpster if he loafs. Midsummer reports weren’t good, as sources said the 6-3 point guard was up to 260 pounds, 45 pounds above his listed playing weight.

[Killakobe81]

Baron would have still had a massive size and strength advantage at the PG position at 210. He ballooned up to 225+, probably more in some of those seasons. It didn't hurt his athleticism enough to make him not explosive. He was still explosive. You can be fat and still be athletic and explosive, like NFL defensive linemen. Shaun Rogers was one of the most explosive DT I've ever seen playing at 6'4 and 350+. But when you're that big, you will be prone to injury.

Baron could have done just as much damage if he stayed at a playing weight 10-15 pounds lighter than where he usually was, and it would have likely helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. I do believe that extra weight was related to his back issues.

I agree with Jam ... just like with shaq just a10-15 lb difference could have a great effect on easing stress on your knees and back.
As for Davis if he never blew out his knee at UCLA he would of been even MORE explosive than he was in his NBA prime. He did a dunk at the UCLA version of "midnight madness" that was one of the sickest I have ever seen for a guy his height ...

[Killakobe81]

imho you call it talent i just call it athleticism.

Obviously if he worked on more moves he'd be extremely good. But you can say that about a lot of guys in the NBA who were just raw athletes (Ben Wallace, Shannon Brown, Jamario Moon, etc.)

That's the difference between a JR Smith and a Rasheed Wallace. I've seen Wallace do the exact same move, the opponent knows its coming, and he still scores everytime. But then he'll just settle at the 3 point line the rest of the game. There's no move that I feel that Smith can do consistently well just make some athletic plays and be a pretty good spot up shooter

Obviously when folks discuss Smith's potential the see the effortless jumpshots and the amazing athleticism. Plus in the playoffs, JVG raved about how underrated he is a passer/playmaker. Sure, maybe with hardwork he is still no Kobe or Manu, but I think with the right coaching and willingness to be coached he would of been fairly close.

[mavs>spurs]

I agree with Jam ... just like with shaq just a10-15 lb difference could have a great effect on easing stress on your knees and back.
As for Davis if he never blew out his knee at UCLA he would of been even MORE explosive than he was in his NBA prime. He did a dunk at the UCLA version of "midnight madness" that was one of the sickest I have ever seen for a guy his height ...

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1...ers/davis.html

baron davis was 6'2 190 playing at UCLA so it wasn't weight that was responsible for the knee blowout. That sort of athleticism puts extreme stress on your joints, that's why he blew his knee out.

[Killakobe81]

I see your point, but IMO if we go that route we can basically claim that if every player could eliminate their weaknesses, they would be the greatest (rendering this thread moot). Personally, Shaq's ty FT shooting and other basketball flaws are a reasonable tradeoff considering what he brought, well for anyone who isn't superhuman. Similary, if Dirk became a great defender and an elite rebounder (can argue he was in the playoffs), he'd probably be the most complete player in history.

My beef with Shaq has to do more with him being lazy, not caring for his body as he should have, and his personality/conflict issues that broke up a dynasty. He has four rings, so he definately isn't a failure by any means. But personally I think he had the tools to at least be remembered as the greatest center of all-time over Kareem and Wilt.

I didnt mention Shaq, because this is a good discussion that I did not want devolving in to he carried Kobe ...pissing contest. But resistanze is 100% correct. Shaq's ceiling if he maxed out his skill level and dedication was higher than MJ's or Kareem's. I watched Shaq play from his 2nd year at LSU back when he was skinny.And this dude had a size/speed ratio that only Lebron really could beat out of any player I have seen with my own eyes. To be that big and to have the quick feet and power he had ...Shaq should of been the future of the position. But instead he made excuses that he was putting on weight to handle the hard fouls (Oh, dont get me wrong he got hacked) instead of staying light on his feet so he could avoid them (you cant hit what you can't catch).

Also the FT shooting and limited range are indictments as well ... the fact that he is still a top 6-15 player all-time is no shame. But Shaq left a lot of rings, stats and legacy on the table by NOT maximizing ALL of his talent.

[mavs>spurs]

There were times where Baron Davis' weight wasn't a big issue. Earlier on in his career, mostly with the Hornets, he played probably closer to 210-215. Still had the size and strength advantage. But he did get fat later. That's when we saw him getting injured more and more.

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2010/08/2...nds.overweight

that link is from 2010. it's no secret that present day baron is unmotivated and doesn't give a . baron was always injured back when he was with the hornets, playing at 210-215 as you said. , baron's first injury came as a skinny 190 pound college point guard. leads me to think it had nothing to do with the weight at all, its the extreme stress that the joints of players like him are under. it was the torque put on his joints and body from all the acrobatic maneuvers. that's why wade is always injured too. players like that tend to get injured.

[Killakobe81]

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1...ers/davis.html

baron davis was 6'2 190 playing at UCLA so it wasn't weight that was responsible for the knee blowout. That sort of athleticism puts extreme stress on your joints, that's why he blew his knee out.

Wasnt arguing that, he was pretty skinny back then. I only brought it up to point out that the kid was even MORE explosive in HS at Crossroads and before he blew out his knee (as a freshman IIRC) ...

The guy was not just a good for HS monster. Though he lacked Kidd's vision watching them both play in HS Davis looked liked the better "natural" talent.

[mavs>spurs]

Wasnt arguing that, he was pretty skinny back then. I only brought it up to point out that the kid was even MORE explosive in HS at Crossroads and before he blew out his knee (as a freshman IIRC) ...

The guy was not just a good for HS monster. Though he lacked Kidd's vision watching them both play in HS Davis looked liked the better "natural" talent.

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism and style of play that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

[Killakobe81]

The "feel for the game" that I talked about is something that can't necessarily be measured. There's a reason why some of the greatest players ever to play the game, like Magic and Bird and even Duncan to an extent, were not the athletic marvels Jordan and LeBron and Wilt and Shaq are/were. There are intangible things great players have. JR doesn't possess those intangibles no matter how hard he works on his game.

Great points. It's also Why Kidd's and Nash have managed to stay relevant ...(well for Kidd at least until this year)

[Latarian Milton]

7'6 chump was da biggest waste of all time tbh, not a talent at all but a simple pure waste

[JamStone]

DT's don't run and dunk like baron davis. There is a HUGE difference between being athletic and being explosive off the line for 2 yards. Big time fail. You can't be a fatass carrying around so much extra weight that it causes you to injure your back and do the things baron did on the court. Baron was all muscle and probably the most explosive player in the entire league before his injury.

injuries.

He already had knee issues since his college days, as you guys mentioned. At 6'3 and making the type of explosive and athletic plays Baron made, do you think playing at 215 versus 225-240 makes a difference to the knees and back? Jumping and landing with extra weight puts a load of stress on a lot of areas of the body, specifically the knees and back.

Who has a better chance at staying healthy? A 6'3 guard at 215 or a 6'3 guard at 225+ doing the type of athletic plays Baron was known for?

And as I posted above, there were some reports that Baron ballooned up to 260 at one point a few years ago. If you want to argue that he wasn't fat when he was still able to be athletic and explosive, uh ok. I'm saying to prevent further injuries, losing weight, whether it's fat or muscle mass would have helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. It's something he should have had control over. If he did everything he could to keep his weight down and still kept getting injured, I couldn't really criticize him. But it's been rumored and reported over the years about his struggles to keep his weight at a reasonable range for him to prevent injuries.

[mavs>spurs]

LOL why do you keep bringing up 2010 baron? his career was ing over by then. that was over a decade after the injuries began. the dude was getting injured at 190, he would have gotten injured at 210 too. it was his style of play and the stress his body was under from the extreme athleticism as you now finally acknowledge. muscle acts as a shock absorber for the body believe it or not and is NOT the same as being 225 fat. baron was always ripped.

http://www.coreconcepts.com.sg/mcr/m...ock-absorbers/

"When we think shock absorbers, we usually imagine things that cushion or push back. But muscles don’t cushion or push back, they contract. So how do they absorb shock? Muscles absorb shock because they usually work in pairs to move our joints. By contracting, they can slow down a joint moving in the opposite direction."

[JamStone]

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism and style of play that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

Do you not see the difference between being 6'8 and 260 and 6'3 and 260? Plus you add the fact that Baron already had knee issues, you should know extra weight made him more injury prone. LeBron hasn't blown out his knee to make it as much of a concern. If LeBron starts suffering knee and back injuries, he better lose weight too.

[Killakobe81]

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

Huh? what I said was:
1. I agree that although I'm no doctor .... I think excess weight can NOT be good for your knees or back long-term.
2. Davis was skinny when he blew out his knee so that had nothing to do with weight. However when you ALREADY have injuries to a your knee and back how could excess weight ...help?
3. BD if he never had the 1st knee injury maybe he never battles weight iand some of his injury issues ...because if so he had potential to be a HOF'er.

Dont get me wrong he was nevera agreat shooter. But Davis was clutch had very good (not great) vision and could even post-up smaller Pg's

[mavs>spurs]

Do you not see the difference between being 6'8 and 260 and 6'3 and 260? Plus you add the fact that Baron already had knee issues, you should know extra weight made him more injury prone. LeBron hasn't blown out his knee to make it as much of a concern. If LeBron starts suffering knee and back injuries, he better lose weight too.

do you not see the difference between 2001 and 2010?

[mavs>spurs]

LOL why do you keep bringing up 2010 baron? his career was ing over by then. that was over a decade after the injuries began. the dude was getting injured at 190, he would have gotten injured at 210 too. it was his style of play and the stress his body was under from the extreme athleticism as you now finally acknowledge. muscle acts as a shock absorber for the body believe it or not and is NOT the same as being 225 fat. baron was always ripped.

http://www.coreconcepts.com.sg/mcr/m...ock-absorbers/

"When we think shock absorbers, we usually imagine things that cushion or push back. But muscles don’t cushion or push back, they contract. So how do they absorb shock? Muscles absorb shock because they usually work in pairs to move our joints. By contracting, they can slow down a joint moving in the opposite direction."

somebody needs to follow that link and read up on their physics

[mavs>spurs]

but i'm sure you'll spin it back to your original argument like you always try to do and keep thinking it was baron's fault he was genetically prone to back issues. But as a fan of basketball, you for that. Baron Davis's career is a trajedy to real basketball fans, dude had top 5 all time pg potential and I don't find what you said very appropriate at all.