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that's WC's line
that's WC's line
lol excuses not to read
http://www.theamericanconservative.c...-libyan-war-v/Amnesty International has issued a report on the great humanitarian success that is post-Gaddafi Libya:Amnesty International on Thursday said armed militias in Libya commit widespread human rights abuses, creating instability and obstructing efforts to rebuild the country.This is the kind of thing that happens when a dictatorship in a country with very weak ins utions collapses as a result of war. None of this should come as a surprise to anyone. The reprisals that were already happening during the fighting last year have continued, and they seem to be getting worse. Militias in Libya have become a law unto themselves, and there doesn’t appear to be that much interest in creating a democratic government. Perhaps next time we in the West should not be so eager to help turn a dictatorship into a failed state.
“Armed militias operating across Libya commit widespread human rights abuses with impunity, fuelling insecurity and hindering the rebuilding of state ins utions,” Amnesty warned in a new report.
The report, released a year after the start of the February 2011 revolt that toppled Muammar Gaddafi’s regime, do ents “serious abuses, including war crimes, against suspected Gaddafi loyalists, with cases of people being unlawfully detained and tortured — sometimes to death,” it said.
“Militias in Libya are largely out of control and the blanket impunity they enjoy only encourages further abuses and perpetuates instability and insecurity,” said Donatella Rovera, senior adviser at Amnesty International.
then again, maybe that was the whole point
Wrong. The complaining hasn't stopped yet. Neither has the violence, misery and oppression that war unleashes./threadOriginally Posted by FuzzyLumpkins
Complaining about death in war is like complaining about sex at an orgy.
Last edited by Winehole23; 02-16-2012 at 01:39 PM.
shaping up to be a new civil war, tbh
Solution: more enlightened war.
*Mega Dittos*Exactly. Same different day.Originally Posted by coyotes_geek
+1
We need to get out of the "spreading democracy" business.
Last edited by Winehole23; 02-16-2012 at 01:36 PM.
Stirring the pot doesn't guarantee success. It just provides progress (for good or bad). I've no problem with that as long as we're not putting foots on the ground.
for good and for ill. your complacency about the ills for Libyans is duly noted.
besides ditching Qaddafi, what's the good part, in your opinion?
and what progress has there been, post-Qaddafi?
The good part is Lybians making out of Lybia what they want. hole or not, it's entirely up to them.
Doing away with the status-quo was progress, for good or bad. That's all I said.
Nope. It's mostly up to gangbanging militias, now.
And I asked, what post-Qaddafi progress has there been? Anything?
Lybian gangbanging militias?
I don't know. I haven't kept track since it's not been our problem.
I'm sorry, thought you were referring to ordinary citizens. My bad.
I see. Failed states we essentially created by intervention, such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, are no longer our problem now that US forces have been withdrawn, or are about to be. I guess moral responsibility stops at the water's edge once the war is declared over.
The difference is that we tried to (and mostly failed) doing nation building and "democracy spreading", in Iraq and Afghanistan, militarily (while obviously footing the bill).
Humanitarian aid to Lybia hasn't ceased or won't cease anytime soon. The Lybians have been capable enough (with a little help) to overthrow the dictator they despised so much. They should be able (and will likely get the help if they need it and request it) to deal with the obvious chaotic power grab that normally follows any civilian revolution.
Ultimately, if their choice is to remain tribal and keep their place a hole (much like Iraq or Afghanistan), it's their choice. They're now free and sovereign to do what they choose to do.
which is totally proper, the end of a war signifies the end of direct, forceful intervention. but the light shed thereby on the epigones of moral responsibility (as expressed through force, naturally) -- is not kind to the ideal, or the propounders
lacks some sticktoit-iveness
realpolitik eats political ideals for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I see the give it time bid and think it's totally valid, time will tell, democracy is larval at best in Libya. I assume the NTC is the sovereign you are referring to. Would that be wrong?
As for "being free now" I am troubled by Libya quality of freedom issues highlighted in this thread, for example. Have you followed the links?
Sure. Ideally, everyone would've dropped their guns, hugged, and moved on to piece together the best possible country. Didn't pan out that way (yet anyways), and so be it. I'm actually glad they're figuring out this stuff on their own. Maybe they're perfectly happy to live under some sort of tribal control. Maybe they don't know better. Let them figure it out.
I'm referring to them being sovereign in the sense that they're not given a "packaged" government template, and forcing them to use it (much like we did in Iraq or Afghanistan).
There will be ups and downs. There always have been when there's such a power vacuum. But they're also now aware the power they hold as a united group, and I'm sure those filling in those positions of power have that present too.
I speak in the abstract mostly because I have not been following much on it. I think this is going to be a long process for them and that's mostly why I haven't followed the minutiae...
Absolutely. I was just pointing out that our widely respected and feared moral concerns about the misdeeds (or foreseeably imminent misdeeds) of others, seems to run hot and cold.
Sadly the poor people that can only watch american media believe everything they are told. That is why they believe the Lybian people were "clamoring" for Ghadafi to step down.
poor are the souls that eat everything the Main Stream Media feeds them
Let me break it to you, most Lybian people did not want Ghadafi gone:
Rebel admits that most people supported Gaddafi LIBYA ON WAR
has Iraq not taught you poor peple anything?
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