Tbh, nobody ever has anything bad to say about Ginobili regarding the 2007 playoffs even though he was below his normal standards until nine and a half games into those playoffs. I mean, nine and a half games into those playoffs he was averaging less than 13 points while shooting dangerously close to 30%.
Against the Suns he scored 14 points on 5-for-18 shooting from the field in the first two games of the series COMBINED. In Game 4 he had ten points on 3-for-14 shooting.
Those are three very un-Ginobili-like games.
Against Denver, he was 4-for-15 in Game 1 and 1-for-8 for four points in Game 5.
Cleveland, yeah he had only one sub par game -- 0-for-7 in Game 3.
Parker was good in Game 3 and 4 vs. Denver and Game 6 vs. Phoenix. Agree that Ginobili basically won Game 5 vs. Phoenix with his play in the second half and Utah Game 4.
But Parker was great when Ginobili wasn't ... like Game 1 vs. the Suns, which was also a huge game. Plus the closeout game against the Jazz and Game 3 against the Cavs.
Ginobili having a 17% higher PER is at least partially equalized by Parker playing 25% more minutes.
And as far as plus/minus, against the Suns I remember Ginobili having a negative plus/minus for more than half the series. And the player who really shined in plus/minus that playoffs was Oberto, IIRC.
PER uses steals and blocks, which gives Ginobili and big advantage over Parker.
And there's no way Ginobili was much better on D than Parker. Against the Nuggets, Parker guarded Iverson while Ginobili guarded Blake. And Parker did really damn good against Iverson.
Against the Suns, Parker shut down Barbosa and did good work on Nash when he had that matchup. Manu guarded .... Raja Bell?
Against the Jazz, Parker erased Derek Fisher from the series and did good work on D-Will. Manu guarded ..... AK47 and Giricek? I don't even remember off the top of my head, tbh.
Against the Cavs, Parker absolutely shut down the opposing starting point guard ... be it Larry Hughes or Boobie. Ginobili was on Pavlovic and D. Jones, IIRC.
There's just no way to say Ginobili was much better on defense than Parker during that run. Parker had the more difficult matchups and did good work. I could buy they were equal depending how much you want to weight team defense ... but thats about as far as I can go.
Those Cavs were actually really good at defending point guards. Chauncey Billups sucked in the ECF. Jason Kidd didn't do much against them in the second round. It's not like the Cavs were getting lit up by point guards on a regular basis.
There's no way to argue that Ginobili was better than Parker against the Nuggets. Shooting 34% and having much worse assist-to-turnover ratio pretty much makes it impossible to argue otherwise. Especially when you factor in who each was defending.
Against the Suns, Ginobili was AMAZING in the second half of Game 5 and might have had his best game ever in Game 6. But for three of the six games, Ginobili was undeniably sub par any way you look at it -- stats, plus/minus, etc. To give that series to Parker isn't much of a stretch.
Parker won the MVP against the Cavs and Manu had an 0fer in a four game series so don't really see the way to give that one to Ginobili.
The Jazz was pretty damn close.
I'll look at the series grades I did during the time but I'm pretty sure they show the same opinions.
Don't get me wrong, Ginobili was great in those playoffs all things considered. Starting in the second half of Game 5 against the Suns until the end of the playoffs, he was pretty damn close to 2005 level. Plus his play in Game 6 against the Suns might have been the best game out of any Spur since Duncan in 2003.
Parker's problem is that he's at times created expectations with his game that he isn't able to live up to when the defense accounts for him more. The one definition of a superstar is that no matter what you throw at them they find a counter that works just as well. Parker doesn't have that. When you seal the paint he basically becomes ineffective.
I'm just saying that Manu's best games in those playoffs were the critical ones, games that had the Spurs lost they would've been trailing late in series. Their two most important games were Game 5 @Phx and Game 4 @Utah and he was big in both. Game 3 @Den too.
Didn't Larry Hughes get injured before the Finals? When healthy he was first team all defense but he was basically hobbling in the Finals. Maybe that has something to do with why Parker was so good and the other pg's weren't.
That's another important distiction between Manu and Parker. Manu always played big in the big games. Parker seemed to shrink from the moment. He could start a playoff series on fire but once the defense adjusted he would run into trouble and it would seem like he was shrinking from the moment. Manu was huge at making the big plays at the big moments in the series.
How about the argument that if Manu had shown up in all of the games and not had some really bad ones then the Spurs "critical" games aren't as critical?
Manu's lucky that he automatically gets better treatment than Tony. I honestly don't know why thats the case, but I worry about Tony's safety had he been the one to foul Dirk in 2006.
Such a stupid argument.
For one, Manu had some leeway with Spurs fans because he was either the main reason they won in 2005 or 1-B, and 1-A wasn't Tony, so be real.
For two, the only reason that Dallas series even got to Game 7 in SA was because Manu played a great game in Game 6 while Tony shat the bed.
For three, it was a Manu three in Game 7 that gave the team their short-lived lead against Dallas, and he did most of his damage in that game in the fourth quarter.
Finally, as costly as it was, it was still a play that was borne of trying too hard, rather than not try at all. Only dumb fans and dumber coaches get on players for playing hard. If you want to know why fans have always been more drawn to Manu and Tony, it's because he puts his body on the line defensively and takes those big charges, gets those key, momentum-turning blocks and steals. He lays out to save balls from going out of bounds. Parker is a great player, but he's just not wired that way. He'll only put his body on the line in the name of getting himself a lay-up or a trip to the line. Defensively, he sometimes he hustles and stays in front of his man, but he doesn't change games on that end of the floor. He just doesn't.
That post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
The Spurs should sell some Manu-colored glasses, so that fans could see the world all Manu, all the time
That post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
No glasses required, tbh
I'm sure you can manage to squeeze a bit more Manu into your lifeNo glasses required, tbh
really?Good thing Manu's wife isn't much of a looker so the pope of CoM won't run into any drama there.
Wow, she's a cutie damn. Cane must have a preference for the plumper ones. No doubt he gets his jollies "Pumping bacon", after rolling 'em in flour first.
Hey Cane, you and TheBigFundamental should go hoggin' some time. You guys can even take turns "pumping the bacon".
Wow, six pages
You're the least credible person to talk about Manu outside of Ducks. You're still sore at the guy because he didn't tip you.
That post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Speaking of the 2007 playoffs, here's an interesting way to look at the Big 3's production. I took the equation for PER but didn't equalize the minutes (since there's no point to equalize the minutes between those three because Pop is going to play them the most possible minutes come playoff time). Here's the results over the course of the 2007 playoffs:
First of all, Duncan was so much better than Ginobili and Parker that they don't even belong in the same conversation. Secondly, it's hilarious that people argued Ginobili vs. Parker when they basically carried the same workload. When Ginobili struggled, Parker picked it up ... and vice versa.
But Manu's production could've been much better if Tony would've passed him the ball more, tbhSpeaking of the 2007 playoffs, here's an interesting way to look at the Big 3's production. I took the equation for PER but didn't equalize the minutes (since there's no point to equalize the minutes between those three because Pop is going to play them the most possible minutes come playoff time). Here's the results over the course of the 2007 playoffs:
First of all, Duncan was so much better than Ginobili and Parker that they don't even belong in the same conversation. Secondly, it's hilarious that people argued Ginobili vs. Parker when they basically carried the same workload. When Ginobili struggled, Parker picked it up ... and vice versa.
So they were about the same, but Manu was better at being the same.
Parker had guys like Steve Blake, Steve Nash, and Boobie Gibson guarding him throughout those playoffs.
Would like to see a graph of the 2005 playoffs when you have some time, mr timvp. Kinda CoP of you to use 07' when that was supposedly Parkers year because of so many favorable matchups (and even then its pretty even
Speaking of the 2007 playoffs, here's an interesting way to look at the Big 3's production. I took the equation for PER but didn't equalize the minutes (since there's no point to equalize the minutes between those three because Pop is going to play them the most possible minutes come playoff time). Here's the results over the course of the 2007 playoffs:
First of all, Duncan was so much better than Ginobili and Parker that they don't even belong in the same conversation. Secondly, it's hilarious that people argued Ginobili vs. Parker when they basically carried the same workload. When Ginobili struggled, Parker picked it up ... and vice versa.
Hey short term memory loss, that was my whole point. You gave the '07 postseason to Parker over Ginobili 4-1. I said they should be tied at worst. So now you admit it. You're welcome.
That, or you're just not very good at reading graphs.
Don't forget to take into account the fact that a PG has the most difficult job on the floor and the giggest load of work...Parker had guys like Steve Blake, Steve Nash, and Boobie Gibson guarding him throughout those playoffs.
Tbh, I was going by series. The graph shows Parker "won" the Nuggets series and the Cavs series ... and shows the Jazz series was a tie. Against the Suns, Manu exploded in the second half of Game 5 and in Game 6 (Manu's PER for Game 6 was 50.99-- haven't checked but that might be the record for a Spurs playoff game) but otherwise Parker "won" that series too.
For the record, PER isn't a very good formula to judge Spurs players. I like it in general to use league-wide -- I especially like it because it makes David Robinson look like one of the best players ever and Manu Ginobili one of best shooting guards of all-time -- but for intra-squad rankings, it isn't too useful because it loves things that Pop doesn't actually love (steals, offensive rebounds) and doesn't care about some things are useful in Pop's system (field goal percentage, generic two-point baskets ... and basic man-to-man defense, obviously).
Speaking of PER and Ginobili, the only shooting guards he trails in the last 35 years are Jordan, Wade and Kobe
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