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  1. #1
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals continues to struggle with how to handle junk science, issuing (at least) its second 5-4 opinion in the last year (Ex Parte Robbins is the other I have in mind) allowing courts to rely on known junk science, this time reversing the lower court to proactively affirm the use of polygraphs as a basis for revoking sex offenders' probation. Chuck Lindell at the Austin Statesman gives the only MSM account I've see of the case of William Leonard ("Appeals court allows polygraph evidence, in limited way," Mar. 8), whose probation was revoked because he failed 5 polygraphs during mandatory treatment. Other than the polygraph, "appellant was halfway through his treatment plan and had faithfully attended the required meetings, participated in group therapy, and fulfilled all other terms and conditions of the treatment program," according to Judge Cathy Cochran's dissent. Moreover, "his therapist testified that the polygraph results were the only reason Leonard was discharged from treatment." Lindell explains the import of the decision:
    In a 5-4 decision Wednesday, the Court of Criminal Appeals upheld Leonard's probation and prison term, saying the polygraph results were admissible in court because the information formed the basis of the therapist's expert opinion.

    "Even generally inadmissible facts or data may be used by an expert in forming an opinion, as long as the facts or data are of a type reasonably relied upon by other experts in the field," said Judge Lawrence Meyers, writing for the majority.

    "Polygraph exams are reasonably relied upon by experts in sex offender psychotherapy," Meyers added.

    The majority reaffirmed that polygraph results are always inadmissible before a jury.

    But there is less danger of undue influence if the information is revealed during revocation hearings because there is no jury and because the judge "is not determining guilt of the original offense," Meyers wrote.

    But Judge Cathy Cochran, writing in dissent, said the majority opinion employs logic that leads the legal system "down a very steep and slippery slope."

    Leonard was sent to prison based solely on the failed polygraphs, Cochran wrote, despite numerous scientific studies and reports that have cast doubt on the accuracy of the tests.

    "No court should admit or consider scientifically unreliable evidence," Cochran wrote, adding that Leonard experienced "not only ‘revocation by polygraph' but also ‘revocation by an expert's reliance on unreliable science.' "
    http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.co...als-okays.html

  2. #2
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    However, as Cochran wrote, "Although an expert may base his opinion, at least in part, on otherwise inadmissible evidence, it must nonetheless be reliable inadmissible evidence." Or at least that was the case until yesterday. Now, probationers can be revoked based on testimony from experts who base their conclusions exclusively on unreliable evidence.

    Bottom line, because we're talking about sex offenders, the courts are willing to bend over backward to maximize punitive sanctions, even to the point of allowing pseudoscience to dictate sentencing decisions, as in this case. But now that the precedent has been set, you can be sure prosecutors will get more creative about probation conditions that defer polygraph use to some third party so it will be admissible when it otherwise wouldn't be.
    same

  3. #3
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I love grits for breakfast, but I have only ever had grits from a package. I would like to try homemade grits. mmmmmmmm

    Edit: Also, I find it disturbing that courts will use as a basis for probation revocation, evidence which they will not use as a basis for conviction.
    Last edited by Drachen; 03-08-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  4. #4
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    grind the corn yourself do ye, Farmer Drachen?

  5. #5
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    grind the corn yourself do ye, Farmer Drachen?
    I have a vitamix, I may try that out.

  6. #6
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Just suck your asshole in to give you a high heart rate to make the polygraph test inconclusive.

  7. #7
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    thanks for the tip!

  8. #8
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I have a vitamix, I may try that out.
    that's pretty neat, actually

    https://secure.vitamix.com/Vitamix-5...e-Kitchen.aspx

  9. #9
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Yeah, I have used it every day since christmas. I love this thing (and no, I did not pay for it).

  10. #10
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    What a stupid decision.

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    What I got used to was HOMINY grits, which are milled from dried corn that has been soaked in lime or lye water and then dried again.
    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/558162

  12. #12
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Technically, the guy is now just serving out his original sentence. They are under no obligation to give him probation.

  13. #13
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Drachen is talking about something a little more like this, I think:

    http://www.ansonmills.com/grits.htm

  14. #14
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Technically, the guy is now just serving out his original sentence. They are under no obligation to give him probation.
    Technically, that's a lame rationalization.

  15. #15
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Technically, the guy is now just serving out his original sentence. They are under no obligation to give him probation.
    They revoked it for bull . You cool with that?

  16. #16
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Drachen is talking about something a little more like this, I think:

    http://www.ansonmills.com/grits.htm
    Regular yellow grits are hard to find. We make jalapeno cheese grits with them and I normally can't find them at HEB...had to go to Sprouts last time...

  17. #17
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    They revoked it for bull . You cool with that?
    What if it turned out he was flunking the polygraph because he really was stalking little boys?

  18. #18
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    What if it turned out he was flunking the polygraph because he really was stalking little boys?
    What if he wasn't?

  19. #19
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    polygraphs aren't reliable. therefore, experts who rely on it to form their opinions are FOS.

  20. #20
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    I have a vitamix, I may try that out.
    Not quite a Vitamix, but a cool blender, nonetheless.



    Ruling is ridiculous, btw.

  21. #21
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Then they erred on the side of caution and the guy served out his original sentence.

    On the other hand, if they had left him out on probation knowing he had failed the polygraph 5 times and he killed or raped a kid we would be screaming for their heads.

  22. #22
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    No .

    You're in favor of thought police tactics even if they are monumentally flawed.

  23. #23
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    On the other hand, if they had left him out on probation knowing he had failed the polygraph 5 times and he killed or raped a kid we would be screaming for their heads.
    This is true.

    However, "Individual rights" are supposed to trump all in this country; you are walking dangerously close to the left's "general welfare" tendencies with your argument.

    On the flip side, this guy's presumption of innocence is already gone (at least until his probation is up)....

    On second thought, I actually can see how a reasonable person could fall on the other side of THIS case; but, again ONLY in probation cases - though I would probably still side with the minority opinion.

  24. #24
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    On the flip side, this guy's presumption of innocence is already gone (at least until his probation is up)....
    It's gone for crimes he has yet to commit?

  25. #25
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    LOL, I was trying to be funny in my first post, but I semi-hijacked the thread. Sorry about that, but not too sorry, because I am getting some good info (Jalapeno Cheese Grits? in-A that sounds great).


    - If courts won't admit polygraphs as proof of guilt in court due to their being unreliable, I can't see why they would become any more reliable outside of a courtroom.

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