Cheap Solar Panels Made With An Ion Cannon

[Wild Cobra]

English has nothing to do with it. Silicon is still too brittle at the micrometer range. You need to be in the nanometer scale of thickness to make it flexible enough, which is the reason this thing needs to be processed by the ion cannon pre and post the addition of the metal layer.

Here's an article from 2006 explaining this:
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/17237/

And that applies in this case... How?

[ElNono]

And that applies in this case... How?

[Agloco]

Have you ever seen silicon bend? I have. It depends on the direction you bend it across the lattice. In one direction, it will snap readily in line with the crystal structure. Brittle in this direction. It is resistant to bending, but it will bend without breaking as long as you don't start a crack in line with the crystal grain.

So its brittle. Thanks for sharing the other bit of info.

Yes, wrong number of zeros.

How many zeros were there supposed to be?

[Drachen]

anyone have any opinions on the PV panels? I know that unimportant minutia during the production process is always fun to talk about but....


Also, I agree with TB, you had me at ion cannon (yes I see an irony)

[ElNono]

How many zeros were there supposed to be?

[Wild Cobra]

OMG...

You don't understand how the differences in technology apply? The reasons they have different solutions?

[Wild Cobra]

So its brittle. Thanks for sharing the other bit of info.
Si is wood veneir, until you b


How many zeros were there supposed to be?

[Wild Cobra]

So its brittle. Thanks for sharing the other bit of info.
So is wood veneer, until you bond it to something that keeps it from splitting down the grain. The thing with thin silicone it it tends to split down the crystalline lattice.


How many zeros were there supposed to be?

Seriously... You don't know?

I must give you too much credit in the intelligence department.

[Wild Cobra]

anyone have any opinions on the PV panels? I know that unimportant minutia during the production process is always fun to talk about but....


Also, I agree with TB, you had me at ion cannon (yes I see an irony)

I think that the process is awesome. Great technological advances are often something simple nobody thought of doing before. My hat's off to these people. reminds me of what CMP did to speed and density of the semiconductor industry, allowing the advances of the 90's.

Who would have thought of using an orbital sander on the devise side of wafers?

[Wild Cobra]

FYI...

I just measured the three 200mm wafers I have. They each measure 0.75mm. I though I kept the wafer I had after a backgrind process, but it wasn't with these three. I think I might have it under one of my tool box drawers, but I'm not digging for it now. I was going to measure it too.

that is the standard size for 200mm wafers. 300mm wafers are slightly thicker, probably 0.8mm, but i don't have any to measure.

I can see using thinner blanks for solar cells, since they don't go through the same degree of stress as CPU, memory, GALS, PALS, etc.

These bring back memories:

Gaard Automation has been acquired by

IPEC to acquire Gaard Automation

Avantgaard 676 (formally MP400)

Avantgaard 776 used in training

Patent: Orbital motion chemical-mechanical polishing apparatus and method of fabrication

US Patent No: 6,095,904

[MannyIsGod]

I wonder how the automation equipment handles such thin material.

A standard 200mm wafer is (if I recall) about 0.7 mm thick. That's 700,000 microns. Now these are actually rather robust, and there is a later stage process that back grinds them to a far thinner product. They are very fragile after back-grinding. After this step, the dies are cut.

Now of course, technology changes, but I have first hand experience of what I mentioned.

[Slomo]

[MannyIsGod]

Drachen, I have nothing interesting to say in regards to this single bit of technology as I am not familiar with it, but the price drop is what anyone should have come to expect with Solar given its history of increasing efficiency at an exponential rate while also decreasing price at an exponential rate. Its awesome.

[Agloco]

Seriously... You don't know?

I must give you too much credit in the intelligence department.

Admitting that there's a problem is the first step to recovery. It's rumored to be quite cathartic. You should try it some time.

Care to share your thoughts on the number of zeros we should have seen?

[Drachen]

Drachen, I have nothing interesting to say in regards to this single bit of technology as I am not familiar with it, but the price drop is what anyone should have come to expect with Solar given its history of increasing efficiency at an exponential rate while also decreasing price at an exponential rate. Its awesome.

Thanks, I just thought I would (possibly foolishly) try to put a wedge in the direction the conversation was going as I could have seen pages and pages of "how many zeros?" and "I have experience" . . . I too am not familiar with it and think it is pretty darn cool that we are finding newer and cheaper ways to produce this stuff.



Edit: And yes, I am fully aware that I have been guilty of being the sole reason that an interesting/important thread got off track (i.e. Grits), but I did try to bring it back at one point.

[RandomGuy]

Seriously... You don't know?

I must give you too much credit in the intelligence department.

(shrugs)

Only one of you has a PhD.

[RandomGuy]

Admitting that there's a problem is the first step to recovery. It's rumored to be quite cathartic. You should try it some time.

Care to share your thoughts on the number of zeros we should have seen?

A micrometre (or micrometer), is by definition 1×10−6 of a metre (SI Standard prefix "micro" = 10−6).
In plain English, it means one-millionth of a metre (or one-thousandth of a millimetre, or 0.001 mm). Its unit symbol in the International System of Units (SI) is μm. The latter may be rendered as um if Greek fonts are not available or not admissible. "Micron" comes from Ancient Greek: μικρόν mikrón, which means "small".

.7mm = 700 microns?

Aaaah I get it. He said 700,000 then ragged on you for not knowing and asking him, when in reality he was talking out his ass, and didn't want to admit he made a mistake.

Gotcha.

[TeyshaBlue]

Drachen, I have nothing interesting to say in regards to this single bit of technology as I am not familiar with it, but the price drop is what anyone should have come to expect with Solar given its history of increasing efficiency at an exponential rate while also decreasing price at an exponential rate. Its awesome.

Yeah. That and ION CANNONS!!!!111!!

[Drachen]

Yeah. That and ION CANNONS!!!!111!!

Best take in here so far TBH!

[Wild Cobra]

Thanks, I just thought I would (possibly foolishly) try to put a wedge in the direction the conversation was going as I could have seen pages and pages of "how many zeros?" and "I have experience" . . . I too am not familiar with it and think it is pretty darn cool that we are finding newer and cheaper ways to produce this stuff.



Edit: And yes, I am fully aware that I have been guilty of being the sole reason that an interesting/important thread got off track (i.e. Grits), but I did try to bring it back at one point.

Do you think it will bring the cost down enough? I've been out of touch with the industry for a long time, but the silicone itself is only a small part of the price. I have learned from experience to be skeptical of numbers that appear to be forecasts rather than proven. especially when they come from companies trying to expand.

[Wild Cobra]

.7mm = 700 microns?

Aaaah I get it. He said 700,000 then ragged on you for not knowing and asking him, when in reality he was talking out his ass, and didn't want to admit he made a mistake.

Gotcha.

No, I admitted to making the mistake before that question. Yes, I had three too many zeros. Then after asking that silly question, after admitting an error, I thought I would reply that way.

In post #25:

Yes, wrong number of zeros.

After AssLoco put my mistake in red.

I actually noticed it after rereading the thread as it progress soon after the mistake, meant to edit it, but got caught up with other things and forgot.

Now can we get back to the purpose of the thread?

[RandomGuy]

No, I admitted to making the mistake before that question. Yes, I had three too many zeros. Then after asking that silly question, after admitting an error, I thought I would reply that way.

After AssLoco put my mistake in red.

I actually noticed it after rereading the thread as it progress soon after the mistake, meant to edit it, but got caught up with other things and forgot.

Now can we get back to the purpose of the thread?

It's a minor thing. I'm just bustin' on ya, cause its funny, and let me post a cartoon youtoob.

By all means.

ION CANNONS!!!!! WHOOT!

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you think it will bring the cost down enough? I've been out of touch with the industry for a long time, but the silicone itself is only a small part of the price. I have learned from experience to be skeptical of numbers that appear to be forecasts rather than proven. especially when they come from companies trying to expand.

At their most optimistic projection (forty cents a watt for the panel) it will only reduce the price of PV solar by forty cents a watt. Racks, inverters, and labor are still the bulk of the current $5 a watt installed price of PV solar. Panels are currently eighty cents of that $5 per watt.

[LnGrrrR]

I want this Ion Cannon and the Magnetic Rail Gun to make love and have a baby.

[Wild Cobra]

At their most optimistic projection (forty cents a watt for the panel) it will only reduce the price of PV solar by forty cents a watt. Racks, inverters, and labor are still the bulk of the current $5 a watt installed price of PV solar. Panels are currently eighty cents of that $5 per watt.

So the savings may be around 5%. If that makes the difference of buying USA rather than from China, sounds great. Still, once the Chinese buy one of these, don't you think they will replicate the technology?