Pick-and-roll for Tiago Splitter?
It would be nice if he had Tiago back down his man more often. A post game we can rely on during the playoffs would be nice.
From what I have seen, Tiago doesn't have the best back-to-the-basket game. He relies heavily on the pump fake, and that is best utilized on the pick and roll because this is when a defender is trailing a play and is willing to take chances to get a block.
It would but we're not getting that from Tiago. I would like more post up plays called for him to at least make him more comfortable with it.
I think given a chance he has an adequate post game. The problem I see is that it seems hardly anyone re-posts him when he kicks it out, the way they would for Timmy.
But, the times I've seen him one-on-one post someone up, he does well imo. I mean, he's no TD, but no one is. And the times I have seen them repost him, it goes well. If only he didn't suck at free throws though...
P.S. Nice Cow Eye gif.
Yeah I think Tiago does ok in the post too. Remember the post game effort by Dejuan Blair against the Thunder? He was hot and had many attempts. It feels as if Splitter doesn't even get the opportunity to have that type of game. We may need him to step up big in the playoffs and if he hasnt had much practice in this department we won't be in a good position when we rely on him to sub in for Timmy.
Tiago's back to the basket game is vastly overrated on these boards, in my opinion.
He had a string of good luck and high "back to the basket" percentage for a small stretch a couple of months ago (before his first injury), but the sample size was pretty small and he was never that type of player to begin with.
I think if anything, he's perfected his up and under, but the success of this move relies on his defender biting on the initial up fake. This isn't like prime Tim Duncan where he had a way to score without relying on fakes all the time.
I'm not terribly confident with Tiago's hook shot either. I appreciate the fact that Tiago stays within his own game and doesn't try to overextend himself on offense. Has he earned a couple more post looks per game if he really wanted them? Sure. He's earned them, but I think he realizes that posting up his not necessarily his strong suit unless there's an obvious mismatch.
I'm not saying his post up game is necessarily bad. I just think the sample size is too small to make a good assessment right now. I cringe a little every time I see Tiago back down a competent defender in the post. He only seems to score on an up and under only when the defender bites on his up fake. Other than that, his hook shot is pretty ugly and doesn't seem to be all that reliable, but truthfully I haven't looked at the data.
TBH tho this all started with overreacting to a good performance against a undersized Rockets team.
His hook shot is beyond ugly & his offensive game on the low block is way too soft.
I was very disappointed the other night tho when he failed to score on Dirk in the low block.
People need to realize that Splitter's post game is still evolving from practically nothing just last season to a nice little bag of tricks already. Nothing fancy yet, but also has a lot of room to improve. And let's not forget he came to SA already a highly accomplished P&R player who now sets some of the best screens in the league.
IIRC it took Dwight Howard several years to develop even a few simple post moves, which is where Splitter is at already, and that's with far less minutes.
Splitter's post game would probably help from going against the other team's power forward. He would likely have the height advantage and can take his time getting the shot he wants. He could be destroying small ball lineups on offense.
It's just you.
I think people would actually be surprised to see his post-up numbers. Pleasantly surprised.
Not only does he have a higher FG% (in post-up situations) than Duncan, he was at one point in the top 10 (8) of all NBA team leaders in post-up FG%. He has some glaring weaknesses when it comes to the post, but he also does some things as well (or better) as anyone in the League. You're right about the sample size, it's not very large. But his post-up attempts make up 33% of his offense so I think there's still an adequate number to start drawing conclusions. For example, he's only converted on 30.4% of his hook shot attempts from post-up situations. And he shoots the hook 60.5% of the time while posting up. One thing he does extremely well in the post is getting to the rim. Whether it's his up-n-under, back-shoulder spin or quick dribble drive, he uses his footwork and gets to the rim very well when given enough time and an adequate clear out. Even though he hasn't been great with his hook shot, he's still managed to shoot 42.1% in the post. Compare that to Tim Duncan - 38.1% in the post and All-Star Marc Gasol - 45% in the post.
A post-game is something you develop over time as familiarity (with opponents and positioning) increases. He needs reps to hone his skills. Marc has over 200 post-up attempts; Tiago has 79.
Those stats are accurate as of right now (excluding the Mavs game). I have quite a few more Tiago stats I pulled from Synergy a few weeks ago that I need to update in Excel. Whenever I get a chance I'll update them and post them in a thread. Some of the data is pretty interesting.
^^Ignore the "Fouls Drawn" column of that data. Those numbers are one of those things I need to update. Every other column is accurate.
but Tiago had quite a few dunks ... why aren't they included?
That was from P&R most likely. His stats only show "post-ups".
Not including the Mavs game: He's made 24 dunks this season and missed 2. The majority of his dunks come from the PnR and from cuts to the basket (combined - 22). He currently doesn't have any dunks attempts out of post-up situations.
Again, like Jestersmash already said, there isn't a very large sample size when it comes to his post-up game, but he doesn't have a high number of FG attempts in general so you kind of have to work with what you're given. As it grows you'll eventually be able to see patterns develop.
Great input and field work Jag! I just hope Tiago has a chance to improve his sample size in post up situations before the playoffs.
I don't mind so much that Tiago doesn't get many minutes, but the team could at least use him when he gets his minutes. He's shown he can produce down there (as your post indicates) and we've been so desperate to look for another big yet what's the point if we don't even let our current bigs get opportunities to begin with?
For Pop to expect something out of players in the playoffs when he hasn't asked them for it much during the regular season is nuts. Practice makes perfect and Tiago could use more.
Splitter doesn't do well in post up situations against player his size, against smaller lighter players he's effective at this point. I can also see him getting better in the future. He currently only has beginner footwork in the post-up game though he's improving alot from last year to this a real off season promises to be a giant help for him. He's also still working on his strength last year he was seriously getting pushed around this year its considerably less. He's also hurt a bit in the post by not having a quick first step.
Because the whole team remembers him getting somewhat abused last year in the post, (lots of blocked shots) other players are unlikely to push the issue as is he unless he feels he has an advantage against the guy who is guarding him.
The team as a whole has also been getting away from post up play in the low block over the past couple of years TD has gone from Dominate to simply good.
Wow, really interesting data. Appreciate the effort _JaGI think people would actually be surprised to see his post-up numbers. Pleasantly surprised.
Not only does he have a higher FG% (in post-up situations) than Duncan, he was at one point in the top 10 (8) of all NBA team leaders in post-up FG%. He has some glaring weaknesses when it comes to the post, but he also does some things as well (or better) as anyone in the League. You're right about the sample size, it's not very large. But his post-up attempts make up 33% of his offense so I think there's still an adequate number to start drawing conclusions. For example, he's only converted on 30.4% of his hook shot attempts from post-up situations. And he shoots the hook 60.5% of the time while posting up. One thing he does extremely well in the post is getting to the rim. Whether it's his up-n-under, back-shoulder spin or quick dribble drive, he uses his footwork and gets to the rim very well when given enough time and an adequate clear out. Even though he hasn't been great with his hook shot, he's still managed to shoot 42.1% in the post. Compare that to Tim Duncan - 38.1% in the post and All-Star Marc Gasol - 45% in the post.
A post-game is something you develop over time as familiarity (with opponents and positioning) increases. He needs reps to hone his skills. Marc has over 200 post-up attempts; Tiago has 79.
Those stats are accurate as of right now (excluding the Mavs game). I have quite a few more Tiago stats I pulled from Synergy a few weeks ago that I need to update in Excel. Whenever I get a chance I'll update them and post them in a thread. Some of the data is pretty interesting..
You're absolutely right - I think when you adjust for the fact that Tiago simply doesn't have the sheer (NBA) experience/number of post attempts that someone like Marc Gasol has, you have to be pretty pleased with his post numbers overall.
The 28.6 FG% on hook shots 4-10 feet from the basket still makes me cringe a little, though
But, given that Tiago has been so consistently efficient with scoring overall, like I said before I don't mind him exploring and developing his post game at the NBA level. He's certainly earned it.
I still don't like his hook. He has a great fake though and gets some nice up and unders.
The up and under is an unstoppable move when done right.
As far as post-play is concerned, when it comes to Tiago’s opponents, I agree that he definitely performs better on smaller players, but that’s probably the case with any post players. In general, he has the most trouble with players who are physical with him.
I don’t agree that he was “beginner footwork” in the post. If not for his footwork his post-up FG% would be atrocious. There is sometimes indecisiveness on his part when it comes to what kind of moves he can and can’t get away with, but I think that has more to do with him not having a great feel for NBA post-play right now. At first it annoyed me how much everyone talked about his footwork, but the more I really paid attention, the more I noticed how polished his footwork can be when he’s not thinking and just playing.
I also disagree that he has a slow first step. In fact, I think his quick first step is one of his main assets and has helped him both in the pick ‘n’ roll and the post.
The biggest problem I’ve seen with him is that he forces the issue far too often while posting up. He could easily kick it back out and re-post, but he’s probably afraid he won’t get the ball back. He’s in a tough spot due to the number of minutes he plays; he's seemingly trying to generate any type of offense he can before he gets yanked from the game. If it weren’t for him forcing/rushing as many shots as he has, his post-up offense would hardly even exist. And even with the number of post-up shots he’s forced or rushed, he’s still managed to put up solid numbers.
He can look downright ugly in the post sometimes. But he’s shown many times that he can get to the rim, and make his hook shot over solid defensive players. In fact, he does a surprisingly good job of creating enough space for many of his hook shot attempts. I can’t count the number of times he faced good defenders and missed easy/open hook shots after making a solid move to create space. Many times it’s a result of him rushing his shot, which is a common theme with Tiago.
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