What is Tim Duncan's religion?

[all_heart]

Do you seriously believe a spaceship picked up Elijah?

Uhh...of course not! It was my attempt at humor.

[Blake]

Uhh...of course not! It was my attempt at humor.

I figured you were just being silly

[ambchang]

Great to see how people regurgitating questions that came up hundreds of years ago that has been solved is accusing others of being mentally lazy.

Very nice.

[ambchang]

Even better to see someone so into science and "reality" to totally ignore human aspects of things such as why the KJV of Bible was written in the first place.

[all_heart]

I figured you were just being silly

I though the smiley gave it away.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole. Although it seems that most of the attacks in this thread are from picking and choosing parts of the Bible to support the attack instead of addressing the Bible as a whole.

Have you even read the New Testament? I only ask that because it's hard for me to understand how you could come up with the questions you do regarding the Old Testament after reading the New Testament. Christ's ministry was pointing out to the Jews that their worship had become superficial only and their heart was evil. It is all about Christ being the last priest for those that believed in him after his resurrection. Paul spends almost the entire time in Romans dealing with how Christians were no longer under the law because Christ fulfilled the law for them and has given them grace to be righteous. He also deals explains why animal sacrifices are no longer needed in Hebrews 10:9-18. (vs. 18) - Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Please point out anywhere in the New Testament that Paul invokes the law over grace? 1 Timothy 2 is not it - Paul is giving instructions on prayer and I do not see a reference to the law.

Where does Paul patronize women?

I not only trust Paul as having been inspired by God, I trust the same of all of the authors of the New Testament. There were over 40 prophesies in the Old Testament that spoke of Christ and so I don't know how Christians could ignore the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean that Christians are obligated to physical worship of the Old Testament.

Why do you think it's called the New Testament? It is a New Covenant between God and mankind prophesized in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Malachi 3:1 and pointed out in Hebrews 8:10-11 and Matthew 26:27-28. It's a covenant that is no longer under a physical worship as was given to Moses, but a spiritual worship as stated in Romans 8:1-4.

What temper tantrum are you referring to? Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple because there were people scheming to make money off of sacrifices that were supposed to be holy?

As far as John Smith, are you referring to Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith believed the book of Mormon to be above the Bible - I do not believe that can be harmonized. There is also no archaeological evidence to support Joseph Smith's claims and there is no harmonization with the Old Testament or the New Testament to support his book. That is why I don't believe Joseph Smith.

I do not understand your generalization of Christians as not being accountable to anyone or even God - to me that makes no sense based on what we believe and what we're taught but you're definitely en led to your opinion.

I've read the thing multiple times but thanks. I havent been told what its supposed to read like the last two times. Gives a nice fresh perspective. Well thats not true I never could make it through numbers.

Wow, in the Corinthians verse he straight up did invoke the law in saying women were to be inferiors. The Timothy verse he just says women are subservient again. I get that women were second class then culturally that just lends to mypoint that it was written by men and not by God. You come up with excuses just to ignore it all.

As i said i get the thing about sin and sacrifice. And yes the money changers and the Levites coming between man and his absolution is exactly my pont. Thats what Jesus was all about. Its pretty apparent he didn't like their racket getting between the people and their absolution. He ended that nonsense.

You take some vague verses from Paul and use that as carte blanche to ignore everything. In that you are a follower of Paul. He was a good salesman. The Council of Nice choosing all of his works as the word of God was one of the greatest tragedies in history.

As for the last, I get why you do not believe the book of mormons there is no archaeological evidence. Unfortunately there is also only the vaguest evidence at best for the that you believe in. You believe it anyway. Thats they point i am trying to make.

Why are Hindu's flying elephants wrong?

[underdawg]

Good enough for me, cheers . The only problem I have is your view that christianity is somehow unique, it's not at all.

Sorry - I didn't mean to say that Christianity was unique in that I could prove it was the only religion that's right (although that is what I believe). I meant that it is unique in the approach to salvation (I'll admit I could be wrong here). My understanding is that Islam, Hinduism, Judiasm, Mormonism, Buddhism and so on are based on the individuals journey and self improvements based on the teachings of said religions. Physical worship and or self improvement is key to salvation or enlightenment.

Christianity is based on the believer understanding that they are incapable of being righteous on their own and only through the grace of God in atonement by Jesus Christ can they be saved. In other words, no matter how hard a believer tries to be "good" they cannot be "good" on their own. Only through belief in Christ can a believer be righteous. This doesn't mean that the believer will stop sinning, but that as they become closer to Christ they will sin less and after they are resurrected like Christ into God's kingdom, they will sin no more.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My belief in Christianity comes from personal experience, knowlege and my faith. I do not know as much about Islam, Hinduism, etc. as I do Christianity, but I continue to research other religions and will do so in order to understand them. That said, I think Christianity is unique in that it doesn't rely on the ability or works of the believer to be righteous. It accepts all of mankind to be sinners and short of the grace of God and only able to reconcile with God because of the work Jesus did.

I don't know what my cir stances would be if I lived in a different country and why that would influence the will of God. I've been surrounded by Christianity most of my life and it took me most of that time to truly give my life to Christ. I was not exosed to other religions as much as I was Christianity, but I was still aware of other religions and never felt called to any other.

As far as who goes to and who doesn't, I would be foolish to make that judgement because it's not mine. I know that Christ says in John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Because of this verse and Christ's message throughout the New Testament, I believe that salvation is through Christ only. I don't know how this applies to someone that has never heard of Christ.

If every man is a sinner and the only way to salvation is by joinng the country club then how are they going to get absolution without knowing the one way? I'm sure you have some vague mystical bull cliche but the answer is obvious. under your paradigm all nonbelievers no matter the reasona re doomed. I am sure you feel sorry for me because you think I am going to too. Thats how most christians operate.

[Blake]

Great to see how people regurgitating questions that came up hundreds of years ago that has been solved is accusing others of being mentally lazy.

Very nice.

My question has been answered?

I can't seem to find the unquestionable answer. Please post it.

[underdawg]

I've read the thing multiple times but thanks. I havent been told what its supposed to read like the last two times. Gives a nice fresh perspective. Well thats not true I never could make it through numbers.

Wow, in the Corinthians verse he straight up did invoke the law in saying women were to be inferiors. The Timothy verse he just says women are subservient again. I get that women were second class then culturally that just lends to mypoint that it was written by men and not by God. You come up with excuses just to ignore it all.

As i said i get the thing about sin and sacrifice. And yes the money changers and the Levites coming between man and his absolution is exactly my pont. Thats what Jesus was all about. Its pretty apparent he didn't like their racket getting between the people and their absolution. He ended that nonsense.

You take some vague verses from Paul and use that as carte blanche to ignore everything. In that you are a follower of Paul. He was a good salesman. The Council of Nice choosing all of his works as the word of God was one of the greatest tragedies in history.

As for the last, I get why you do not believe the book of mormons there is no archaeological evidence. Unfortunately there is also only the vaguest evidence at best for the that you believe in. You believe it anyway. Thats they point i am trying to make.

Why are Hindu's flying elephants wrong?

There's actually quite a bit of archaeological evidence that supports the Bible, but don't take my word for it go look it up.

Again - where did Paul invoke the law over grace? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

Where did Paul say that women were inferior to men? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

I gave you examples of how the New Testament went against the grain of thinking at that time of women as 2nd class citizens - I did not say it was because of the time period.

Jesus' teachings dealt directly with the hypocrisy of men to say one thing on the outside and to believe another in their hearts. This is why he challenged the Pharisees on their self righteous belief that they were good because they didn't kill, but in their hearts they hated their brother (Matthew 5:21-22). This is the purpose of the new covenant (as I stated previously) to take away the physical worship that had been perverted and to replace it with spiritual worship that was possible because Christ fulfilled the law.

[underdawg]

God clearly endorses slavery in the Old Testament

In what context could slavery ever be justified?

not being lazy, but just a better explanation than I could give:

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make res ution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/d...omote-slavery-

[Blake]

I though the smiley gave it away.

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

[DrSteffo]

The Vikings believed that the ones who fight hard (Manu et al.) goes to Valhall/heaven and the cowards don't get in. They also believed that we all live in a big tree so they were kind of wrong. Their stories were more fun than the Bible though.

[all_heart]

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

Of course... I figured you would say something like that.

Let me ask you something, what if I'm right and you are wrong and vice versa?

[all_heart]

how are they going to get absolution without knowing the one way?

Please clarify this question.

[underdawg]

If Jesus was the truth, how could he say that no man had ever ascended into heaven before, when one of the major OT prophets did just that?

It says this in all the bible gateway translations and is a legitimate question, unless you are too lazy to ask it.

I've already addressed this with you - Elijah did not ascend into Heaven by his own power but was taken up in a whirlwind. Christ ascended up into heaven by his own power.

If that's not good enough for you, here are a couple of detailed responses to that very question:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...=6&article=654

http://www.tektonics.org/af/firstascent.html

[underdawg]

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

Are a virgin birth, resurrection of the dead and other miracles more unvbelievalbe than believing that God created the universe?

If God was able to create the universe and man, why would any of the miracles be impossible?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There's actually quite a bit of archaeological evidence that supports the Bible, but don't take my word for it go look it up.

Again - where did Paul invoke the law over grace? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

Where did Paul say that women were inferior to men? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

I gave you examples of how the New Testament went against the grain of thinking at that time of women as 2nd class citizens - I did not say it was because of the time period.

Jesus' teachings dealt directly with the hypocrisy of men to say one thing on the outside and to believe another in their hearts. This is why he challenged the Pharisees on their self righteous belief that they were good because they didn't kill, but in their hearts they hated their brother (Matthew 5:21-22). This is the purpose of the new covenant (as I stated previously) to take away the physical worship that had been perverted and to replace it with spiritual worship that was possible because Christ fulfilled the law.

There is archaeological evidence that citys or people existed but as for the miracles? There is none. I do think its awesome that you think Jonah lived int he whale and that the entire earth was covered in water for 40 days in the course of written history or that God really sponsored a barbeque for his priest class.

As for women, I didn't say anything about trumping anything. I get now that when you say you look at the Bible as a whole what that really means is you have your verse from Romans that you use as a fiat to pick and choose. Now you are just talking about in general terms.

Bottom line is that Paul told both Tim and the Corinthians that women were to be subservient and to the corinthians he said that was the law. You can point to a later contradiction but that just goes to the point that is being made: Paul just made up as he went along. You will note his similarity to modern politicians as he tries to sell his brand to the various churches and constancy is not one of his virtues.

I will say it again the Council in Nice choosing the works of Paul and then later exiling the nestorians was one of the greatest tragedies in human history.

What you should note is that most of what you bring up is not from Jesus. Its from Paul whose edicts you follow more closely. You certainly reference them more.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are a virgin birth, resurrection of the dead and other miracles more unvbelievalbe than believing that God created the universe?

If God was able to create the universe and man, why would any of the miracles be impossible?

Thats the whole argument about omnipotence. Just invoke that and your covered. Its nonsense but whatever makes you feel better.

[Blake]

not being lazy, but just a better explanation than I could give:

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make res ution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/d...omote-slavery-

Fathers were allowed to sell daughters. It also allowed for non-Hebrew slaves to be owned indefinitely....passed down father to son.

Sorry, but there is never a righteous humanitarian reason to "own" another human, and if you are actively participating in it, then you are endorsing it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Please clarify this question.

John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fathers were allowed to sell daughters. It also allowed for non-Hebrew slaves to be owned indefinitely....passed down father to son.

Sorry, but there is never a righteous humanitarian reason to "own" another human, and if you are actively participating in it, then you are endorsing it.

Yup that was also in all of the code of laws supposedly handed down by God.

[all_heart]

John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Okay... so what's the question?

[all_heart]

Yup that was also in all of the code of laws supposedly handed down by God.

Didn't Underdawg, explain this above? ^

So you think Christians support slavery?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Didn't Underdawg, explain this above? ^

So you think Christians support slavery?

No. i am saying that the Bible ins utionalized it. I'm sure some in the south still invoke those passages to this day. I do not expect christians to be consistent. Its impossible given their doctrine.