Apple sucks

[lefty]

The Bat-Tablet

Coming June 2012, es !

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Now wait a second, Fuzzy. If you're talking their gadget/phone/pad market, I'll be more inclined to agree with you. After all, they do much more custom component design on those (all the way to the CPU), and thus it's only fair they shoulder more of the blame. It's also a much different market than the regular computer market for them, seeing they've a fairly sizable share of it. It's also a market that markedly different as prefab is the only option there.

But on the mainstream computer market (desktops/laptops/servers, which is what I was referring to) they're really not that different from any other major vendor. There's certainly an Apple tax (as there is a Sony tax), but it's a market with much more compe ion for them, and much smaller margins.
In that market they source their components from just the same companies everyone else does. In that market though, their system design in certain areas has been top notch, but simply because it's one of the few areas where they can stand out.

I feel like we are going around in circles. The manufacturer may do its own QC or it may not. The defect rate of the components is established. Coils are going to overlap and bearings are going to misalign etc.

The system still has to be assembled. As its being put together QC can happen at various places from receipt, along the line, as well as the final product. While QC decreases defects that make it through, it costs money in labor equipment etc.

Apple judges how to handle that by cost. Its cheaper to deal with recalls like they did with all of those laptop batteries 5 years ago and warranty service than it is to actually QC so for the most part they ignore it. They only have to last a year.

Compare that with Sager, Asus, or Alienware and they QC stringently and use better hardware. I would take a prefab Sager which costs about the same every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Its just how Apple has always done business. When they engineer their own stuff it just shows more because they don't QC for on both manufacture and assembly so you get an extra special sandwich.

I really loathe Apple's business practices. I really feel like they con people. When they told people that not paying out stock dividends was cutting edge or view their nebulous patent applications it cements that feeling. I know they are going to go about ing all manner of people now that the patent law has been changed to first to file.

Its just how they do business.

[leemajors]

Thats notebooks and the 'anecdote' begins with my experience with Apple iPods and extends to specific commentary from my design professor about how Apple approaches QC, warranties and whatnot specifically he brought up hard drives and monitors. Cost is pretty central to design.

Perhaps they have responded to all the criticism they were getting as they were getting hammered for it 5 years ago but a quick google search of 'apple quality control' brings up a whole lot of ing about iPhone, iPod, and iPad QC. After my third iPod's HD took a , I just gave up on the company.

They just settled a class action suit late last year I believe about first gen Nano batteries. If you happen to have one lying around you can get a free like for like replacement.

[ElNono]

I feel like we are going around in circles. The manufacturer may do its own QC or it may not. The defect rate of the components is established. Coils are going to overlap and bearings are going to misalign etc.

The system still has to be assembled. As its being put together QC can happen at various places from receipt, along the line, as well as the final product. While QC decreases defects that make it through, it costs money in labor equipment etc.

Apple judges how to handle that by cost. Its cheaper to deal with recalls like they did with all of those laptop batteries 5 years ago and warranty service than it is to actually QC so for the most part they ignore it. They only have to last a year.

Uh? The major reason for malfunctions is far and away component failure. Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba and Gateway all had to recall batteries for the exact same issue (bulging/fire).

Compare that with Sager, Asus, or Alienware and they QC stringently and use better hardware. I would take a prefab Sager which costs about the same every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Sager is the *only* one of those that actually does individual unit testing. Alienware stopped in the early 2000's and if you actually look for Alienware quality control issues articles you'll find plenty. Asus is no different.

They all use the same sourcing of components, except for Asus, who actually designs and manufactures the motherboards and the PLL control chip.

Sager doesn't manufacture any component, they also only offer a 1 year warranty, you have to pay shipping to send your unit back even under warranty, and they fail just like everyone else's.

Its just how Apple has always done business. When they engineer their own stuff it just shows more because they don't QC for on both manufacture and assembly so you get an extra special sandwich.

I really loathe Apple's business practices. I really feel like they con people. When they told people that not paying out stock dividends was cutting edge or view their nebulous patent applications it cements that feeling. I know they are going to go about ing all manner of people now that the patent law has been changed to first to file.

Its just how they do business.

Looks like it's personal

I like some of their products, and I don't think they necessarily do business much different from other companies. I also loathe some of their products and decisions, which I have to put up with on a daily basis (ie: When I really want to do something I know you can do on their devices, but you can't do it because they won't "approve it" to sale on their store. Walled garden isn't just for users).

I also avoid their hardware tax like the plague whenever I can. When I needed a high end box, I simply put a hackintosh together. There's simply no added value on their high end products to make it enticing for me.
I would never look at their offerings for a server.
On the other hand, when I needed a small box for low end stuff at home about 3 years ago, a MacMini at $600 was a good buy. I very likely wouldn't buy one of their current MacMinis at that price today. But back then it was a decent deal. I upgraded the out of that box, and frankly never had issues with it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Uh? The major reason for malfunctions is far and away component failure. Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba and Gateway all had to recall batteries for the exact same issue (bulging/fire).



Sager is the *only* one of those that actually does individual unit testing. Alienware stopped in the early 2000's and if you actually look for Alienware quality control issues articles you'll find plenty. Asus is no different.

They all use the same sourcing of components, except for Asus, who actually designs and manufactures the motherboards and the PLL control chip.

Sager doesn't manufacture any component, they also only offer a 1 year warranty, you have to pay shipping to send your unit back even under warranty, and they fail just like everyone else's.



Looks like it's personal

I like some of their products, and I don't think they necessarily do business much different from other companies. I also loathe some of their products and decisions, which I have to put up with on a daily basis (ie: When I really want to do something I know you can do on their devices, but you can't do it because they won't "approve it" to sale on their store. Walled garden isn't just for users).

I also avoid their hardware tax like the plague whenever I can. When I needed a high end box, I simply put a hackintosh together. There's simply no added value on their high end products to make it enticing for me.
I would never look at their offerings for a server.
On the other hand, when I needed a small box for low end stuff at home about 3 years ago, a MacMini at $600 was a good buy. I very likely wouldn't buy one of their current MacMinis at that price today. But back then it was a decent deal. I upgraded the out of that box, and frankly never had issues with it.

Well of course some QC is going to fail. Some problems manifest after minimal wear but it passes inspection. the point though is that they actually try and make sure the products they send out actually work. Apple does not.

i guess you could call it personal especially from the patent angle but at the same time I cannot think of a single level that I can appreciate their business practices. When you talked about the HD 'firmware' as a energy conservation principle I couldn't help but roll my eyes. If they are marketing that that just underscores my point. So much of what they do is style without substance from their IPO to the assembly line.

[ElNono]

Well of course some QC is going to fail. Some problems manifest after minimal wear but it passes inspection. the point though is that they actually try and make sure the products they send out actually work. Apple does not.

I'll just agree to disagree with this. They did have a fairly high (~20%) failure rate with iPods units that had a hard drive, which was about halved with flash units. I haven't heard anything about high failure rates for their other product lineups though.

i guess you could call it personal especially from the patent angle but at the same time I cannot think of a single level that I can appreciate their business practices. When you talked about the HD 'firmware' as a energy conservation principle I couldn't help but roll my eyes. If they are marketing that that just underscores my point. So much of what they do is style without substance from their IPO to the assembly line.

Actually, the hard drive firmware thing is simply a design decision. HDs in general are either active or spun down with heads parked. Spinning the drive up is time consuming, uses a lot of juice and does wear and tear. Their firmware adds an intermediate sleep mode (using a custom SATA command), where the heads get parked and the motor keeps spinning at a very low speed. It's used as the primary sleep mode when you close your computer, and after a certain amount of time, if you didn't wake up your system, then it puts it on deep sleep (turns off the motor). There's more design stuff like that. For example, their thermal and fan control is hardware-based (using a chip called the SMC), and so devices need to have their temp sensors with a direct link to the chip. That's why even though most HDs have internal temp sensors, Apple still includes an external sensor on the drives.

Obviously, if you swap the drive with a non-Apple drive, it still works. You just don't get the intermediate sleep mode, and thus the drive will suck more juice until it goes to deep sleep.

I don't think they market any of this stuff. At least, I don't know that they do. But it's stuff that guys like me who has been seeing hardware for 20+ years do notice.

hater likes to call me an applefan or whatever, but a lot of people here can tell you I have my critique of Apple too. I specifically agree with you and I don't like what their doing with their patents (the patent trolling system in general sucks, and Apple is part of the problem).

I also have no loyalties other than those that pay my bills. These days that includes Apple, Windows and Linux. Being married to a single platform and not adapting is a poor business decision.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'll just agree to disagree with this. They did have a fairly high (~20%) failure rate with iPods units that had a hard drive, which was about halved with flash units. I haven't heard anything about high failure rates for their other product lineups though.



Actually, the hard drive firmware thing is simply a design decision. HDs in general are either active or spun down with heads parked. Spinning the drive up is time consuming, uses a lot of juice and does wear and tear. Their firmware adds an intermediate sleep mode (using a custom SATA command), where the heads get parked and the motor keeps spinning at a very low speed. It's used as the primary sleep mode when you close your computer, and after a certain amount of time, if you didn't wake up your system, then it puts it on deep sleep (turns off the motor). There's more design stuff like that. For example, their thermal and fan control is hardware-based (using a chip called the SMC), and so devices need to have their temp sensors with a direct link to the chip. That's why even though most HDs have internal temp sensors, Apple still includes an external sensor on the drives.

Obviously, if you swap the drive with a non-Apple drive, it still works. You just don't get the intermediate sleep mode, and thus the drive will suck more juice until it goes to deep sleep.

I don't think they market any of this stuff. At least, I don't know that they do. But it's stuff that guys like me who has been seeing hardware for 20+ years do notice.

hater likes to call me an applefan or whatever, but a lot of people here can tell you I have my critique of Apple too. I specifically agree with you and I don't like what their doing with their patents (the patent trolling system in general sucks, and Apple is part of the problem).

I also have no loyalties other than those that pay my bills. These days that includes Apple, Windows and Linux. Being married to a single platform and not adapting is a poor business decision.

What I am trying to get at is what is the savings in terms of efficiency over the conventional firmware relative to the power consumption of DRAM and the CPU?

[ElNono]

What I am trying to get at is what is the savings in terms of efficiency over the conventional firmware relative to the power consumption of DRAM and the CPU?

Well, this kicks in when you sleep the system. Basically, DRAM has been dumped to the drive and is off and the CPU is on deep sleep (ACPI C3/C4).

The CPU probably still uses more power than the HD, even on sleep mode.
IIRC, Energy Star 4 mandates HDs to use 7W on idle.

Slowing down the drive though also realizes savings in other areas. The drive will cool down as part of the process and you can slow or shut down fans.

CPUs and Graphics card have introduced power saving modes over the years. Hard drives never quite got there. Only recently (~2010) Hitachi has started to introduce power saving states and quiet spinup and spindown tech on their drives.

The notebook market is a cutthroat market, and even more so for Apple, whose MacMini and iMac lineups are entirely based on notebook tech (even if they don't use batteries, they do use notebook components and share the thermal aspects). Any small improvements on thermal and battery life are huge for them and gives them a small but quantifiable leg up on compe ors.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Market share certainly plays a role, but in subtle ways, agrees Stefan Savage, a professor of computer science and engineering at the University of California, San Diego. "Clearly, if a platform is unpopular then there is really not much interest in focusing on it," he adds. "In this regard, a platform's security depends on its popularity and the level of effort versus reward—that is, what is the expected return on effort."

For cyber attackers, the decision to write malware for a particular operating system is an investment requiring the development of new skills, the acquisition of new software programs, even the learning of new slang, Savage says. "It's not something one does lightly," he adds. "Moreover, for malware there is an established ecosystem around Windows that really helps reinforce that platform's dominance [as a target], including malware-writing tools, markets to buy and sell malware, infrastructure to deploy malware and lots of open-source information on new exploitation techniques. It takes time to build that kind of community. Market share certainly drives such things, but there is quite a bit of inertia as well."

Assessments of a computing platform's security can often be subjective, with the results often depending on a computer user's preference. There are, however, several areas where operating systems can be judged head to head, Savage says, adding that OS X has consistently been behind Windows in producing what have become standard security mechanisms. "And I'm unaware of Apple putting the level of investment into security that Microsoft has."

excerpt from http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ecurity-attack

[TDMVPDPOY]

anyone use to remember the hardware apple was using b4 adopting intel CPUS were the bomb in its high end mac comps...so why did they jump to intels...

[ElNono]

They were using IBM's PowerPC... And it was much more expensive than intel chips for marginal speed advantage (if any)...

But it's unrelated to the exploits. Those exist on any platform with any CPU.

These yearly "new" Mac viruses are actually pretty weak compared to what you see on Windows as far as sophistication goes (root kits, etc). It's not because Mac OS is necessarily any more secure than Win7, it's just because it's a much, much smaller market.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

anyone use to remember the hardware apple was using b4 adopting intel CPUS were the bomb in its high end mac comps...so why did they jump to intels...

Because Apple is cheap and intel chips are/were cheaper to make.

[ElNono]

Because Apple is cheap and intel chips are/were cheaper to make.

That, and IBM/Freescale really slacking on the PowerPC front. They promised 3GHz chips for two years and never delivered. On top of that, Intel chips consumed less power and ran cooler, a major factor for laptops.

tbh, jumping to PowerPC was a mistake when the decision was made. I think it was Gil Amelio that did it? It was during Apple's darkest financial years.

[hater]

Apple is all about the brand now. They probably will start putting in generic chinese parts made out of lead to save money.

[leemajors]

That, and IBM/Freescale really slacking on the PowerPC front. They promised 3GHz chips for two years and never delivered. On top of that, Intel chips consumed less power and ran cooler, a major factor for laptops.

tbh, jumping to PowerPC was a mistake when the decision was made. I think it was Gil Amelio that did it? It was during Apple's darkest financial years.

Yeah IBM got pretty busy selling everything off and letting thousands of employees go for a while. They made a tidy sum just off selling all that land in North Austin to Simon to build the Domain shopping center and retroactively cutting pensions off 30 years previous to 2005.

[Heath Ledger]

Hackintosh is definitely the way to go i.m.h.o. I have an I5 box dual boots Lion and Windows 7 and couldn't be happier. Hackintoshes are much easier to build with TonyMacs tools and run pretty much flawless.

[spursflow]

Just like anything 3 years old... it starts to slow down. Try updating, then restoring. If those both don't work you can try the apple store. I've had a few instances between myself and my family where we felt a product wasn't up to "par". They replaced it no problem.
Now if you go in with a 3 year old product, it will be a bit harder to do with a phone... with a laptop, no problem.
Also, if you go in saying "apple suxxzz!!!" ... they also won't help you.