Tell me where in the 911 call the dispatcher tells Zimmerman to wait for officers.
He doesn't. And that's an important fact.
They are trying to establish Zimmerman disregarded police instructions when, in fact the 911 call indicates, if not the opposite, certainly a request by police to keep them informed of the su ious persons actions.
That's and important difference.
It's also important to know how, if Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, he was able to confront him. The 911 call clearly indicates Zimmerman lost sight of Martin.
What does the word wait mean and where, in the 911 call does it appear?
Words have meaning?
What do limited mean?
They lied in the affidavit.
I don't have any connection to Zimmerman, emotional or otherwise; I've just had considerable experience reading and writing affidavits. This is a bad one that contains information, stated as fact, that isn't true...and is known not to be true.
If that's the case, what else isn't factual about the affidavit?
Now, tell me where, for the rest of the call it appears Zimmerman is disregarding this advice?Zimmerman:
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real su ious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]
911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?
Zimmerman:
OK.
911 dispatcher:
We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman:
OK.
These assholes. They always get away.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]
911 dispatcher:
OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman:
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
He’s running. [2:08]
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
ing [unintelligible]
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]
This tells me he wasn't still following, how about you? What does it say to you?911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman:
George. He ran.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?
Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.
911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?
Zimmerman:
407-435-2400
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman:
Yeah.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
The affidavit is written to make it appear Zimmerman was pursuing Martin the entire time he was on the 911 call, that he disregarded an instruction to wait for officers and that disobeyed an instruction to stop pursuing and, as a result, he confronted Martin.911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.
Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?
911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.
911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman:
Thanks.
911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:07
This 911 call tells a different story.
Alan Dershowitz seems to agree with me.
Charges Against Zimmerman Won’t Hold Up.
“It’s irresponsible and unethical. . . . This affidavit doesn’t even make it to probable cause. Everything in this affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense. . . . A good judge would throw this case out.”
anyone have a link to or copy of the affidavit?
good interview.
Oh . We agree on something. Campaign speech, for sure. Bunch of horse .
Does Alan Dershowitz ever disagree with you? He's a FAUX News hackAlan Dershowitz seems to agree with me.
There is more than jsut the 911 call. Martin's gf indicated that he was scared because someone was following him. Additionally we have no idea what various witnesses including Zimmerman himself said to the police. Thats why I think its important that the affidavit says he confronted Martin which is contra what the board 'conservatives' have been asserting.
Its fun and all to claim that the prosecutor is making that up in a sworn affidavit, but another plausible scenario is that of the various police reports, witness interviews, etc that we are not privy to that they have proof that was what happened.
The dispatcher advised him not to follow and then talked to him about meeting up with the officers that were being dispatched. Of course Zimmerman can claim that he was confused by the dispatchers wording but its pretty coy to claim that they weren't intimating for him not to do that.
Either way i do not see how that matters. There is no law stating that he couldn't follow. Whats key to me is that Zimmerman started the confrontation.
As for Dershowitz, he sounds like he is trying to argue for the defense rather than be objective. He claims that everything was in the public record but there has been claims here that Zimmerman did not continue following him and that Martin initiated the confrontation. He concedes that all of the evidence is not included in the affidavit and that both parties are trying to get the case sealed.
i would imagine that the judge would have questions about the specifics. We will see.
If Zimmerman was the provocateur, that is probable cause. That does not make him guilty but i have heard of two cases both going different ways in a Florida courtroom about the provocateur initiating the conflict but in both cases that was enough for probable cause. the area of contention was whether or not stand your ground prohibited prosecution.
I'm curious, is there a video interview with her? ANy affadavits from her? Did she state anything about Martin mentioning that he wanted to call his dad or get out of there quickly because he was scared about the SUV trailing him? Did she say he felt like running away? Just curious........................................... ...DOT DOT DOT........
Its in the affidavit so its sworn testimony i am guessing. I do not presume to know.
Hmmmm, never heard anything about Martin living in that gated community too. It's a pretty small place, interested to see the timeline they give for Zimmerman following him "home." Can't believe he didn't try running away.
Oh and here is a transcript of a part of thehearing today. I am guessing that the unidentified man is the judge. Looks like Dershowitz was wrong:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...12/cnr.07.html(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Zimmerman, appearing here for your first appearances, a first appearance at this time for a charge of murder in the second degree, and you are represented by Mr. O'Mara. Is that true?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, DEFENDANT: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember your right to remain silent. All the other rights that he has told you about, you have to say nothing, and we will go forward here on some procedural matters only at this time.
After reviewing the short affidavit for probable cause, I do find that probable cause for the charge as put in the information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
And i have to say you guys suck at getting information. Sounds like confirmation bias based on supposition is the way to go here.
Wait theres more:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-show-accidentHerr found the affidavit legally sufficient to establish probable cause and ordered Zimmerman to appear for arraignment — when defendants formally enter a plea — on May 29 before Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler.
I guess the affidavit didn't suck.
I'm not sure where you got the above transcript from, but there's a pretty key omission.
At 3:49, just seconds after agreeing to meet the police officer at the mailbox, Zimmerman says "Actually, could you have him just call me and I'll tell him where I'm at".
This pretty clearly shows that Zimmerman's intent was not to stay put and supports the affidavit's statement that he planned on continuing his pursuit.
If you disagree with this, why did he change his mind just seconds after agreeing to meet the police at the mailboxes?
I do agree with Yonivore that the affidavit is underwhelming, except for the part about Zimmerman confronting Trayvon (assuming they have good evidence to back that up).
Second Degree Murder seems like a reach based on the affidavit, unless for some reason the most incriminating facts were withheld from the affidavit (which is illogical).
Moose?
Please don't disrespect Bullwinkle like that.
-OK, your clutching his wound theory makes perfect sense and is a very plausible explanation for Trayvon's hands winding up underneath his body.
However, the comparison to boxers duking it out 15 rounds and not being bandaged is seriously flawed. In this particular case, Zimmerman is asserting it was his voice on the 911 calls yelling for help. The yelling is incessant throughout a period of nearly 45 seconds. It is very high pitched, indicating a person who was in severe distress.
If you are to believe the voice is Zimmerman, this wasn't a fight like a boxing match where 2 guys were exchanging punches. The defendant claims his head was being bashed in and Trayvon was on top beating the living out of him. So, a more appropriate analogy would be a fight where one guy has complete control and is pounding the out of another for 45 seconds. In these scenarios, fights are called quickly because severe injury is around th corner.
In that scenario, unconsciousness or significant bleeding worthy of at least one bandage is what you'd expect.
What makes more sense: Scenario 1: That 45 seconds of yelling help is a guy who knows another guy on top of him has a gun and is thus struggling to avoid being pinned down (this is what I meant by bracing...that Zimmerman was trying to keep him pinned and Trayvon was fighting to wriggle out)?
Scenario 2: A guy underneath an attacker endures a beating for 45 seconds so severe he is audibly crying for help, yet he miraculously recovers to the point where he doesn't have to get a single bandage and doesn't have blood on his clothes?
Which scenario is more likely to produce injuries that are minor enough to not result in significant blood loss or require bandages?
Yes, Zimmerman had clear injuries, but how many times have you heard of an EMT observing major bleeding head wounds and making a determination to not even bandage one of them, much less take te victim to a hospital immediately?
Actually, it's all hearsay from the girlfriend. Not much of which, by the way, matches early accounts -- by the girlfriend -- in media reports.
^^ I don't think that's actually true.
And in any case, I get what you're saying even if I completely disagree with the perspective you've taken. Re: Trayvon's mother.
Which is precisely what makes it an awful affidavit.
They were supposed to provide probably cause to believe that confrontation was initiated by Zimmerman.
They didn't.
What they did is characterize the 911 call in a way to make it look like Zimmerman disregarded police instructions to wait (which is never said in the 911 call) and to stop following (they used pursue), for which they provide absolutely no probable cause to believe he didn't stop following.
Sorry bobbyjoe, if the police thought it was relevant to establishing probable cause, they would have mentioned that Zimmerman asked police to call him for a meeting place instead of returning to his truck to meet them. In fact, the 911 call -- after the dispatcher tells Zimmerman he doesn't need to follow the subject -- indicates Zimmerman, to me, Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin and was probably just going to stand around at the place he last saw him and have police meet him there.
But, all the affidavit says is:
1) We looked at a bunch of stuff -- reports, statements, what not and based on that we say...
2) Zimmerman defied police instructions (I believe this is important to the police because they believe it goes to establishing the depraved disregard required by 2nd Degree Murder) but, they provided no reason why they believe Zimmerman defied police instructions. None. In fact, they completely make up a "fact" out of whole cloth by stating Zimmerman was told an officer was on the way and that he should "WAIT" for the officer.
3) Zimmerman confronted Martin. Again, a statement for which they provide absolutely zero rationale for believing.
I think what they did was unprofessional and unethical...bordering on criminal.
Last edited by Yonivore; 04-13-2012 at 09:00 AM.
Did you happen to see the entire hearing? It lasted less than two minutes and the Judge was a nervous wreck. He didn't even recognize Zimmerman standing next to his attorney.
I don't think that judge wasn't about to throw out the affidavit. , I wonder if he even read it.
Unless the phone call between Trayvon Martin and his girlfriend was recorded -- anything she says it contained is hearsay.
In the first media report I read, that contained any information about the phone call between Trayvon and the girlfriend, here is what she said...
Then she describes the confrontation."He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."
That's all that was reported."Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
So, it begs the question, how did Zimmerman ever catch up with Martin to confront him in the first place? The article I pulled these quotes from is from March 19 and, while I'm not sure it was the actual article I read back then, I am sure of the quotes.
Elsewhere in the article it says this phone conversation took place 5 minutes before police arrived. They don't say how long before police arrived it was when the Zimmerman 911 conversation took place but, I would suggest, since the dispatcher indicated they'd be there soon, the calls were pretty close to concurrent.
So, that begs the next question; which call disconnected first? Obviously it was Zimmerman's. Otherwise, the 911 Operator would have heard the same thing as the girlfriend. Now comes the next series of questions. How long after Zimmerman's 911 call ended did the confrontation occur? Was it enough time for Zimmerman to resume a "pursuit" and catch up with Martin? Why is it Martin that speaks first? (A clear indication he initiated an exchange -- if not the controntation) Who is actually pushing who when the girlfriend says, "Next thing I hear is somebody pushing?" And, was the phone disconnected because Trayvon was pushed or did his "headset just fall" because he was assaulting Zimmerman?
Also, Zimmerman's description of the dialog is much different than what the girlfriend describes. And, unless you have a third witness to the conversation -- which, so far, we know of none -- there's no reason to believe either Zimmerman or the girlfriend over the other.
But, in my opinion, the length of time between the end of the 911 call and the end of the girlfriend call is the primary determining factor of whether or not Zimmerman confronted Martin or vice versa. The shorter the time, the more likely it is Martin either returned to Zimmerman or was laying in wait -- waiting for him to terminate the 911 call -- to confront him. The longer the time span, the more possible it is Zimmerman resumed looking for Martin, after ending the 911 call, and found him. But, either way, that still doesn't explain who initiated a physical altercation.
It wasn't the judges place to question the "facts" presented in the affidavit. Just to rule if the affidavit gave a reasonable cause to press charges. There is a good chance this won't even go to trial once they start the pre-trial hearings and start putting actual facts on the table. Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence - a relatively low legal standard - that he acted in self-defense in order to get a judge to drop the second degree murder charges.
My point is, I don't think the affidavit even arrived at "reasonable cause" to charge him with 2nd Degree Murder.
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