http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012...sive-geometry/
Nice graph that shows the number of times a team runs certain offense and pts per possession.
Focusing on PPP, nothing really surprises me here.
I (like most fans) cringe when I see Blair post-up, but he's very competent as the roller on the PnR.
Not surprised to see Manu/Tony-Splitter PnR with Splitter receiving the ball on the roll is by far the most efficient offense we have.
Not surprised at Tiago's poor post-up PPP. Not surprised at Duncan's poor post-up PPP.
At this stage of his career, I'm not surprised at Duncan's poor post-up PPP, especially since we see it on the court.
What does surprise me is that it's the second most utilized offensive method, despite it being the third least effective.
I know posting up Tim often opens up plays for spot-ups and cutters, and otherwise keeps him involved in the offense....but tbh, I think Pop just can't quit his love affair with four-down.
So the order of best pick-and-roll operators goes: Gary Neal > Tony Parker > Manu Ginobili
Most Spurs fans would probably guess the reverse. I guess Neal doesn't suck
Do you think it's because Neal mostly plays with Tiago though? If he's either shooting the ball or giving it to Splitter on the roll that could explain it.So the order of best pick-and-roll operators goes: Gary Neal > Tony Parker > Manu Ginobili
Most Spurs fans would probably guess the reverse. I guess Neal doesn't suck
Though I have to say, it's stuff like that which makes me question claims that Splitter's ceiling is limited by his point guard tbh. Neal is probably not the best at in terms of point guard skills...
Nvm Jetersmash.
I'm a newbie trying to learn this stuff.
What is PPP? Four-down? Spot-up? Post-up?
I know, I know, google it!
PPP = points per possession
Four-down: dump the ball to Duncan (4=power forward) in the post and let him operate
Spot-up: outside shooter is stationary on the court waiting for the ball to be kicked out to him
Post-up: shooter gets ball in the blocks with his back to the basket and operates (4-down often results in a post-up)
Well, to be fair, I'd say "operator" is probably the wrong term to use. PnR "ball-handler" in this context specifically refers to instances where the ball handler picks off his man and then (ultimately) takes the shot himself. Gary loves the simple pick --> 3 point shot, but as we've all seen, he's relatively inept at finding the roller when playing PnR.So the order of best pick-and-roll operators goes: Gary Neal > Tony Parker > Manu Ginobili
Most Spurs fans would probably guess the reverse. I guess Neal doesn't suck
Manu tends to look for the roller more often (especially Splitter), but all of the credit is going to Splitter under "PnR Screener" in that graphic.
I like these graphs, but there needs to be more explanation of how he accounts for the fact that plays are not independent of each other.
For example, if TP drives the lane of a PnR, then kicks it out to Bonner for a three, is that counted as a TP PnR, or a Bonner spot-up, or both? Presumably that's a PnR PPP. So then a pure "Bonner spot-up" would presumably only be when they swing the ball around the perimeter. If that's the case, then obviously that's not something you can run all the time: a Bonner or Green spot-up only works because of the threat of another play.
Duncan's post-up game clearly is not what it used to be, but without it the Spurs have no low-post game at all. There's probably an advantage to at least making the defense have to account for that on a regular basis, even if it may not be as efficient as the other plays.
This doesn't surprise me as Neal also throws the best lobs on the team, As in his lobs are soft/ on target/ and hit the receiver in stride. Manu is the best passer but sometimes his passes get away from him. Parker tends to hit players too low and fast, but has improved immensely over the years.So the order of best pick-and-roll operators goes: Gary Neal > Tony Parker > Manu Ginobili
Most Spurs fans would probably guess the reverse. I guess Neal doesn't suck
pretty sure you don't understand the graphic at all.
Gary Neal being adequate at PnR "ball handler" has nothing to do with his ability to throw soft lobs inside. PnR "ball handler" is not measuring point production from the roller. It's measuring point production from the ball handler when he takes the shot himself (jump shot or drive into the lane layup/floater/whatever).
So you say "PnR Handler" is defined as the ball handler taking the shot? I think you're right, I just don't see where it's defined.
In contrast, you are saying the "PnR Handler" play gets credit if he passes it off. I think jestersmash has it right, if there's a pass, it's no longer a "PnR Handler" play.
It's counted as a Bonner spot-up.
It's not counted as a Parker PnR "ball-handler."
But I'm glad you brought it up, it's a really critical part of PnR play that's being ignored by the graphic.
Splitter's fantastic PnR "screener" PPP is a result of Manu and Tony delivering the ball to him in the right spot off PnR, but Manu and Tony aren't getting any credit for it on the graphic.
The same holds true for a PnR play that ultimately leads to a wide open, spot-up 3 point shot.
Again, I think you're right, but it's not accurate to look at the graph and think that (for example) spot-up plays are independent of PnRs and post-ups.
Ppp = points per possession which means the graph says exactly what I thought it meant, whether Gary Neal takes the shot himself per not is pretty irrelevant.
Gary Neal being adequate at PnR "ball handler" has nothing to do with his ability to throw soft lobs inside. PnR "ball handler" is not measuring point production from the roller. It's measuring point production from the ball handler when he takes the shot himself (jump shot or drive into the lane layup/floater/whatever).
My argument that his lob passes are deadly is true as well, the pick 'n roll with Neal is textbook, for a less skilled ball handler who can shoot, he either makes a perfect lob pass or as often is the case can't see over the trees and shoots the ball himself after a stepback on the hedge. I wouldn't want him trying to out think his talents, he's not a great passer other than the lob.
Exactly.
I think the guy is on to something, though. What I would do is have a separate category for "initiate" plays, which can be PnRs, isos, post-ups, etc. If you get a 3-point shot out of a PnR, it counts in that category. Then you could compare the efficiency of the different sets.
What he has here are the "finishes", which are also interesting, but don't tell the whole story.
"Accurate" is maybe the wrong term to use. It's just an incomplete and somewhat useless graph when trying to assess PnR prowess.
The graph is accurate, but incomplete/deceptive.
They should have - at minimum - another category led PnR "ball-handler pass to roller." Manu and Tony would probably rank very high on such a list while Gary Neal would probably be < 1.00 PPP.
Of course, even that wouldn't really be enough to completely encapsulate what PnR is all about. There are so many times where Manu or Tony get "hockey assists" by delivering a fantastic pass to Splitter who ends up doubled near the rim and passes out to a wide open corner 3 point shot. All of that fantastic PnR play initiated by Manu/Tony and Splitter is being credited to "Bonner spot up" in the graphic.
But yeah we're on the same page. Just quibbling over terms.
This OP is poetry. The Spurs play like they all have beautiful minds. I can see the little graphics of angles and advanced mathematics flying around their heads. Seriously, maybe one of the highest BBIQ teams in awhile.
It says ppp in the legend unless my eyes decieve me.
If that's right, then what distinguishes a "PnR Ball Handler" score from the "PnR Screener" score?
If you want to willingly have a wrong interpretation of the graph, then that's your prerogative I suppose
ShoogarBear and I have explained exactly what the terms mean.
Points per possession isn't the what's ambiguous here. "PnR ball-handler" is what's ambiguous, but at the same time it makes sense that the graph wouldn't give credit to both Manu (on PnR "ball-handler") and Splitter (on PnR screener) when the Spurs run an effective Manu-Splitter PnR that leads to a Splitter layup.
But even ignoring your incorrect interpretation of the graph, I'm somewhat surprised that your casual viewing of the game led you to believe that Gary Neal was somehow fantastic at throwing lobs to the roller on PnR plays (not just fantastic, but you actually thought Gary's been a more effective PnR passer than Manu/Tony).
Why should it? They should both get points on a graph like this, if it didn't it should be harder to determine optimal player pairings.
You= owned.If you want to willingly have a wrong interpretation of the graph, then that's your prerogative I suppose
Manu and Tony would probably rank very high on such a list while Gary Neal would probably be < 1.00 PPP.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
