We'll we certainly can't just wave our hands in the air and make excuses...the Israeli make some pretty fine weapons, but you don't see them in the hands of Islamic rebels...so controlling weapons dealers is certainly possible...just gotta make the risk-versus-reward untenable...
You really don't have a clue how these big international gun sales happen do you? They are all permitted by the US government and state department. There is already a system and laws in place to track and control retail gun sales within the US. The system was working but the Justice Department told those gun dealers to go ahead and sell the guns to the bad guys even though the dealers didn't want to. You really should do your research instead of just automatically spouting blue team talking points.
Just another lying politician in the Dept of Justice... picking up where Alberto Gonzales left off... this is news?
Which, after the pages of blue team obfuscation, is what this all boils down to.
CC, you trying to say that F&F guns DOMINATE the sale of guns cross-border sales?
The 6000+ gun dealers along the MX border are there because they NEVER sell to cross-border buyers?
Are you suggesting that the 6000+ gun dealers along the MX border are there to sell to cross border buyers?
http://backstory.blogs.cnn.com/tag/al-qaeda/
By Paul Cruickshank and Tim Lister, CNN
(CNN) – Mohammed Merah is the sort of radicalized individual who makes Western counterterrorism officials very apprehensive: someone who is determined, trained, living legally in Europe or the United States and operating alone. One of dozens (perhaps hundreds) of militants either unknown to authorities or suspected of plotting a terrorist attack but whose real intentions and movements are difficult to track.
Merah is wanted in connection with the killings of seven people in the past 10 days. He twice visited the Afghan-Pakistan border area, in 2010 and 2011, French officials said Wednesday. And after the standoff began in Toulouse, he claimed to have been trained by al Qaeda, they say.
Paris prosecutor François Molins said Wednesday, "He has traveled to Afghanistan without using the networks known by French and foreign intelligence services, which means he went there by his own means and without going through facilitators known by intelligences services, and without going through countries usually monitored."
But Merah had appeared on the security services' radar, according to Molins. During his first trip to Afghanistan, "Afghan police checked his ID during a traffic stop, and as a result he was handed over to the U.S. Army, who then put him on board the first plane heading to France," Molins said. (A senior U.S. official gave a different account, saying Afghan forces had actually handed him over to French troops, who had him repatriated.)
Merah had been under surveillance by French intelligence for years, according to Interior Minister Claude Gueant. Even so, he was apparently able to visit the Afghan-Pakistan region a second time and then ac ulate weapons after returning home, including an Uzi machine pistol and an assault rifle, plan a series of attacks in Toulouse and Montauban, and force the French government to step up security precautions nationwide.
What kind of straw man is that? I'm saying the Justice Department intentionally arranged to export thousands of assault rifles into Mexico and into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels.
That is an undeniable fact.
Is somewhat reminiscent of Janet Reno after the ATF torched all but two branch davidians.
I'm saying what proportion of total cross-border gun shipments from (those 6000+) border state dealers are those F&F guns?
What kind of straw man is that? I'm saying the Justice Department intentionally arranged to export thousands of assault rifles into Mexico and into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels.
That is an undeniable fact.
You imply that US control is so strong, effective and that (6000+) gun dealers are so honest that they can be trusted not to sell to cross-border clients.
The population of gun dealers that might be selling across borders is not 6000+, no matter how hard you try to make it so by implication and poor logic.
I didn't say all 6000 did, I'm trying to get CC relate the F&F number to the number from US gun dealers sold cross-border.
*sigh*
We all know SOME straw purchases are made and slip through. That's hardly a secret. It's already against the law. The US citizens with clean records make the straw purchases, yellow slip the guns in their name, and then re-sell them. This is not about unscrupulous gun dealers intentionally selling guns into Mexico.
Are you saying that just because a few criminals do it, it's therefore OK for the US Justice Department to do it?
Are you aware that in the case of Fast and Furious, most of the gun dealers CALLED the ATF and said they suspected a straw purchaser was operating and the ATF told them to sell to them anyway? In some cases the FBI even provided the money to buy the guns. The Justice Department was up to their eyeballs in running assault rifles to the mexican drug cartels.
And are you aware that when a straw purchase is made (even though the dealer had no idea the buyer was not legitimate) the dealer can still get in deep with the ATF and at the very least lose his license? I'm telling you, i know some gun dealers and they do everything in their power to be totally on the up and up and dot every i and cross every t.
I'm sorry, CC... what is it exactly that bothers you? That the Justice dept sells perfectly working guns to cartels to track them? Because I'm sure you're well aware such programs predate Holder's Justice Dept, and it's far from blue/red territory.
Now, I can agree that's of questionable legality. But that has hardly stopped red/blue teams in the past, has it? How many of these things have both parties swept under the "national security" rug?
They made NO ATTEMPT TO TRACK THEM...NONE...there was no cooperation with Mexican authorities or any attempt at all to follow the guns once they crossed the border.
The sole purpose was to have them found at crime scenes in Mexico to "prove" American guns were responsible for the crimes.
The DIFFERENCE was that the program started under Bush was done in conjunction with the Mexican authorities and they DID track them and make arrests. They followed the guns.
Wait, do you think this is the first time the ATF,DEA, etc do operations on cartels without notifying Mexican authorities? I mean, I don't want to think you're this naive.
Also, who says they didn't track them at all? AFAIK, they did screw up at some point and lost track of a few hundred weapons (which I don't excuse or condone, I think the whole idea is stupid because stuff like that can happen). Is there any new information about this?
Have you really read about this case or are you just arguing to represent blue team and argue with me? ATF admits they didn't attempt to track them and just focused on where they showed up at crime scenes. and they didn't "lose track of a few hundred guns". They facilitated the export of over 2000 guns including AR's, AK types, HK's and Barrett 50's.. I don't consider having them recovered at a crime scene to be "keeping track of them".
The new information is that this wasn't a rogue operation by a few ATF agents as had been claimed. There was clearly knowledge and direction at the highest levels of the Justice Department.
My guess is that Obama will fire Holder within a couple of weeks to try to put this story to bed before the election. We are only about 150 days out and this is the kind of stuff that really pisses off voters.
I'm not arguing just to argue. I'm asking you where you got that information from, because the last I read was that they lost track of a few hundred guns.
All that said, I have zero doubt Holder is lying. What I think it's frankly amusing is trying to paint this as a blue/red team conundrum. Red team lying from the same department is fairly well do ented.
Link? Anything that's not an opinion piece, please? Honest request.
Uhhh...congressional hearings yesterday? E-mails turned over by the justice department? It's been a pretty big news item. Holder saying in sworn testimony that references to "Fast and Furious" in those e-mails (and how to handle the fallout when word of them got out) are not REALLY referring to THE "Fast and Furious"? I'm not making this up.
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