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  1. #201
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Hair Man.

  2. #202
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    so now issa wants 1300 do ents relating to a Feb. 4th email...
    You say that as if it is just another memorandum.

    The February 4, 2011 memorandum from Holder to Congress asserts the federal government was doing everything it could to interdict weapons crossing the border into Mexico. It also stated the federal government was not intentionally allowing guns to cross the border into Mexico.

    On December 2, 2011, Holder sent another memorandum to Congress retracting the February 4, 2011 because the above two statements were false.

    The Committee is interested in seeing if the 10-month process that led to the December 2nd memo will reveal any wrongdoing. It's within their purview to do so and it is Holder's obligation to produce 100% of the materials requested in that pursuit.

    There are a number of lawyers already tearing Holder's letter to Obama (requesting the assertion of Executive Privilege) to shreds over an number of errors, the most important of which seems to be Holder fails to cite the most important Executive Privilege case related to his claim.

    It's going to be interesting to watch this unfold on several fronts; criminal, judicial, and electoral.

  3. #203
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    You say that as if it is just another memorandum.

    The February 4, 2011 memorandum from Holder to Congress asserts the federal government was doing everything it could to interdict weapons crossing the border into Mexico. It also stated the federal government was not intentionally allowing guns to cross the border into Mexico.

    On December 2, 2011, Holder sent another memorandum to Congress retracting the February 4, 2011 because the above two statements were false.

    The Committee is interested in seeing if the 10-month process that led to the December 2nd memo will reveal any wrongdoing. It's within their purview to do so and it is Holder's obligation to produce 100% of the materials requested in that pursuit.

    There are a number of lawyers already tearing Holder's letter to Obama (requesting the assertion of Executive Privilege) to shreds over an number of errors, the most important of which seems to be Holder fails to cite the most important Executive Privilege case related to his claim.

    It's going to be interesting to watch this unfold on several fronts; criminal, judicial, and electoral.
    so they are fishing... got it

  4. #204
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    so they are fishing... got it
    There are other facts that suggest a cover up; you're the one fishing.

  5. #205
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
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    It will be great day when he wins re-election and you disappear from this forum..lol
    My brother, only God will force me from this forum. God bless

  6. #206
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    My brother, only God will force me from this forum. God bless
    Hopefully sooner rather than later..God Bless

  7. #207
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Holder agreed the part of the memo that said they make every effort to interdict guns and that they didn't allow guns to walk was false.
    Correct. That doesn't mean the operation as a whole was uncontrolled.

    It was uncontrolled. I don't know why you think it's important to know if ALL guns were allowed to walk; we know enough did to end up at the scenes of hundreds of murders, including Agent Terry's.
    Of course it matters. If they simply lost track of some of the guns, then it's negligence. It's very different if they willingly ran a completely uncontrolled operation. (And I'm not saying they did either, simply that neither you or I know, and that Holder never admitted to such a thing).

    In the text of the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress.
    There's no such admission on the letter. Quote where he admits the operation was uncontrolled?

    Holder isn't a budget official or an economic advisor, he's the AG. What do you think are the concerns of Agent Terry's family or the families of all toes dead Mexican nationals?
    I think Agent Terry's family would like to know what happened. Once Issa is done with his dog and pony show, maybe there will be an actual investigation that cares about finding out what happened.

    Right there the December 2, 2011 letter to Congress. He didn't say some guns accidentally got across the border, he admitted it was by design.
    Quote? The only admission I find is that the operation was "fundamentally flawed".

  8. #208
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    From the London Telegraph
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...mas-watergate/

    The Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate
    By Tim Stanley

    Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold do ents related to the “gun walking” operation – do ents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President.
    Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about – and for the uninitiated, be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to “walk” across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers. According to the Oversight Committee’s report, “The purpose was to wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious.”
    Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within Mexico.
    It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used the common tactic of “controlled delivery,” whereby agents would allow an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is different because it was “uncontrolled delivery,” whereby the criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.
    So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is the heavy handed way that the administration has handled criticism. Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hi-jacked by Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs (because Obama is o-so very good at generating those). But there has been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did the do ents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?
    Again, it’s important to contextualise. Executive privilege has been invoked 24 times since Ronald Reagan, and attempts to over-ride it rarely reach the courts. Moreover, Holder’s request for executive privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF. Nevertheless, by refusing to sack Holder or push him to come clean, Obama may have made a very Nixonian mistake.
    A lot of conservatives are writing at the moment that not only is Obama turning into Nixon Mark II, but Obama is much worse because no one actually got killed during Watergate. The comparison is based on the myth that Nixon ordered the Watergate break in and that’s what he eventually had to resign over. But that’s not true. Nixon’s guilt was in trying to pervert the course of justice by persuading the FBI to drop its investigation of the crime. Mistake number one, then, was to involve the White House in covering up the errors of a separate, autonomous political department. Mistake number two was that when Congress discovered that evidence about the scandal might be recorded on the White House bugging system, Nixon invoked executive privilege to protect the tapes. In both cases, it was the cover up that destroyed Tricky – not the original crime.
    And, forty years later almost to the day, here we have Obama making the same mistake. Perhaps it’s an act of chivalry to stand by Holder; perhaps it’s an admission of guilt. Either way, it sinks the Oval Office ever further into the swamp that is Fast and Furious. Make no mistake about: Fast and Furious was perhaps the most shameful domestic law and order operation since the Waco siege. It’s big government at its worst: big, incompetent and capable of ruining lives.
    If you like the way he writes, he has a brand new Pat Buchanan biography out...

  9. #209
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Gowdy just destroyed your defense and that's all you got?
    I'll take this as an admission you agree he didn't say anything that was not already known... carry on

  10. #210
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    But then you go into spin control.
    What spin control? I never said Barry or Holder aren't guilty of anything. It seems that pointing out that Issa is no saint himself has the red team' panties in a wad.

  11. #211
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    There are other facts that suggest a cover up; you're the one fishing.
    What do you mean "suggest"? I thought they already proven criminal activity. lol

  12. #212
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    You certainly are stubborn. You are apparently asserting that if ANY weapons were controlled then it was a "controlled" operation.

    The ATF admits to walking over 1600 guns that they did not control.

    Four ATF agents testified to Congress that they were ORDERED by their superiors to let the guns go. This was not "hearsay" as you claim. They were THERE and they testified under oath. They had NOTHING to gain by testifying and in fact, were punished by their superiors for doing so.

  13. #213
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    how do you know they have nothing to gain? why didn't they just refuse orders?

    why do you think the only way to get guns is through licensed arms dealers?

  14. #214
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Six months ago, several agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives stood before Congress to testify about the details of a U.S. government program that armed Mexico's largest drug cartel with thousands of assault rifles.
    The administration denied it at the time and questioned the agents' integrity. The men were nervous and scared. They said they feared for their careers, their reputation and their families.
    "Any attempt to retaliate against them for their testimony today would be unfair, unwise and unlawful," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, warned the Department of Justice.
    He and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., began an investigation to determine who authorized "Operation Fast and Furious" and aimed to hold accountable those responsible for a plan that helped known criminals run guns across the border in violation of U.S. and international law.
    And while President Obama has said the operation was a mistake and that "people who screwed up will be held accountable," the record so far does not bear that out. Those in charge of the botched operation have been reassigned or promoted, their pensions intact. But many of those who blew the whistle face isolation, retaliation and transfer.
    Here's what has happened to the managers of the operation:
    -- Acting ATF Chief Ken Melson, who oversaw the operation, is now an adviser in the Office of Legal Affairs. He remains in ATF's Washington, D.C., headquarters.
    -- Acting Deputy Director Billy Hoover, who knew his agency was walking guns and demanded an "exit strategy" just five months into the program, is now the special agent in charge of the D.C. office. He, too, did not have to relocate.
    -- Deputy Director for Field Operations William McMahon received detailed briefings about the illegal operation and later admitted he shares "responsibility for mistakes that were made.” Yet, he also stays in D.C., ironically as the No. 2 man at the ATF's Office of Internal Affairs.
    -- Special Agent in Charge of Phoenix Bill Newell, the man most responsible for directly overseeing Fast and Furious, was promoted to the Office of Management in Washington.
    -- Phoenix Deputy Chief George Gillette was also promoted to Washington as ATF's liaison to the U.S. Marshal's Service.
    -- Group Supervisor David Voth managed Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis and repeatedly stopped field agents from interdicting weapons headed to the border, according to congressional testimony. ATF boosted Voth to chief of the ATF Tobacco Division, where he now supervises more employees in Washington than he ever did in Phoenix.
    An ATF spokesman in Washington says the key players did not receive promotions, but transfers.
    Special Agent Jay Dobyns, who is suing the agency for breach of contract, is skeptical.
    "These guys are protected. They're insulated. They're all part of a club," Dobyns said, alleging that the ATF has a history of retaliating against its own who speak up.
    "They risk everything, knowing that everything they worked for, their careers, their reputations, their finances, are all going to be ruined."
    Case in point, he said, is field agent John Dodson. Dodson uprooted his family from Virginia in 2010 to join a new elite anti-gun trafficking group in Phoenix, known as Group 7. Dodson quickly witnessed what was wrong and loudly voiced his objections to Voth and Newell.
    Management reassigned Dodson to weekend duty and the wire room, a relatively boring job monitoring telephone traffic and subordinate to junior agents. Soon thereafter, Dodson was temporarily assigned to another group for an additional menial assignment, until ultimately sent to an FBI Task Force, completely away from the ATF, even turning off his ATF building access pass.
    Dodson continued to challenge Voth, saying the operation was killing people in Mexico and suggested it was only a matter of time before a "border agent or sheriff's deputy" would be killed by one of the guns they let go.
    "If you're going to make an omelet, you've got to scramble some eggs," Voth replied, according to a congressional report.
    Voth moved Dodson out of Group 7 shortly before Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was shot by weapons traced to Fast and Furious. Newell, Gillette and Voth began to cover up their tracks. According to an e-mail 24 hours after Terry was shot, Voth wrote:
    "We are charging Avila (Jaime Avila bought the alleged murder weapons) with a stand-alone June 2010 firearms purchase. This way we do not divulge our current case (Fast and Furious) or the Border Patrol shooting case."
    "Great job," Newell replied.
    Dodson first complained internally to the ATF Office of Chief Counsel and Ethics Section, OIG, Office of Special Counsel, and Office of Professional Responsibility. They were unresponsive. Dodson was then contacted by congressional investigators, who began their own investigation.
    Because of Dodson, the Terry family hopes to hear the truth about what happened to their son and the American public learned that senior Obama administration officials did nothing to stop guns from reaching an insurgency south of the border.
    And what did Dodson get for telling the truth? In Phoenix he was isolated, marginalized and referred to as a "nut job," "wing-nut" and "disgruntled," according to sources.
    In Washington, ATF command ordered that "Contact with Dodson was detrimental to any ATF career."
    Newell's Attorney told Fox News that all of this was because "Dodson didn't want to work weekends."
    Dennis Burke, the Arizona U.S. attorney who resigned in the wake of the investigation, admitted he leaked privacy-protected do ents that discredited Dodson. The head of legislative affairs for the Department of Justice, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich, indirectly called Dodson a liar, telling senators the ATF "never intentionally allowed guns" to walk, or to lose sight or control of the weapons.
    So what happened to Dodson and the other whistleblowers?
    "The only people who have been damaged from Fast and Furious, short of the obvious victims, are the people who tried to tell truth and blew the whistle," Dobyns said.
    Dodson was told he was toxic and could no longer work in Phoenix. With sole custody of two teenagers and under water on his house mortgage, Dodson found himself with no place to be and nowhere to go.
    A supervisor suggested he'd be treated fairly at an office in South Carolina. Wanting to keep his job, protect his pension and pay the mortgage, Dodson had no other choice. He and his family now live in a small apartment, facing financial troubles, still labeled persona non grata by the very agency he carries a badge for, and regularly assaulted by leaks from "ATF sources at headquarters."
    Dodson has tried to remain out of the public eye, has not filed suit and says only that he wishes to return to his work as an ATF agent.
    As for the others:
    -- Agent Larry Alt took a transfer to Florida and has unresolved retaliation claims against the ATF.
    -- Agent Pete Forcelli was demoted to a desk job. Forcelli is a respected investigator, with years as a detective with the New York City Police Department. He has requested an internal investigation to address the retaliation against him.
    -- Agent James Casa also took a transfer to Florida.
    -- Agent Carlos Canino, once the deputy attache in Mexico City, was moved to Tucson.
    -- Agent Jose Wall, formerly assigned to Tijuana, was moved to Phoenix.
    -- Agent Darren Gil, formerly the attache to Mexico, retired.
    Sources say the agents are in a kind of purgatory. As whistleblowers, they can't be fired. The agency can try, but it would be messy. On the other hand, they can be transferred but face the problems of relocating on their own.


    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1yRpjziG0

  15. #215
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    "they were nervous and scared" lol

  16. #216
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    how do you know they have nothing to gain? why didn't they just refuse orders?

    why do you think the only way to get guns is through licensed arms dealers?
    Rah Rah blue team!...

    Clambake right on cue...

    See previous article about the ATF agents

    WTF? Fast and Furious was TARGETED against licensed gun dealers and they were instructed by the ATF(against their better judgement) to make the straw sales.

  17. #217
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    so, the nervous and scared atf agents instructed the nervous and scared licensed gun dealers. lol

  18. #218
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    for the record, i don't have a horse in this race. its just fun watching you dance like a duck on a hot plate.

  19. #219
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Rah Rah BLUE TEAM!

  20. #220
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    in case you didn't notice, i'm cheering with red pompoms.

  21. #221
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    You certainly are stubborn. You are apparently asserting that if ANY weapons were controlled then it was a "controlled" operation.
    It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.

    The ATF admits to walking over 1600 guns that they did not control.

    Four ATF agents testified to Congress that they were ORDERED by their superiors to let the guns go. This was not "hearsay" as you claim. They were THERE and they testified under oath. They had NOTHING to gain by testifying and in fact, were punished by their superiors for doing so.
    Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

    BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

    Which is the reason they're seeking do ents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.

  22. #222
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    for what its worth, the repubs have lost their edge. just a few years ago they would have manufactured evidence.

  23. #223
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.



    Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

    BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

    Which is the reason they're seeking do ents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.


    That is not hearsay, it's eyewitness testimony.

    If 4 people testify they saw me kill my neighbor, and my neighbor is indeed dead, I'm getting convicted of murder.

  24. #224
    Monuments DisAsTerBot's Avatar
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    Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.
    wow, that's Mavfan dumb.

    Is his neighbor dead? What a stupid analogy

  25. #225
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    It might have been a controlled operation that went wrong. You seemingly are aware of a similar operation that lost guns too, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that could actually happen. We just don't know.



    Sure it's hearsay/allegations. I can testify under oath you killed your neighbor. It's useless unless I have evidence to back that up.

    BTW, I didn't set those standards, they're basic justice standards.

    Which is the reason they're seeking do ents. If they had what they needed to prosecute Holder, he'll be on trial now.


    Who said anything about prosecuting Holder for Fast and furious?

    The inquiry is about LYING TO CONGRESS AND THE COVER UP.

    We know what happened in Fast and Furious. THE ATF INTENTIONALLY WALKED GUNS TO THE CARTELS. You are the only one that seems to be trying to dispute that.

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