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I am not expecting people to grip about a hypothetical offer. But on the flip side, if people are going to discuss the hypothetical offer, I was surprised to see most of the people have your at ude towards it.
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And I'm not saying Goran should be paid as much as Gordon....I'm saying Gordon getting close to $15M a year coming off the season he had (or didn't have
And the difference again is, one player has an offer, the other doesn't. I'm not sure why you expect people to gripe about Dragic getting $10M as crazy when no team is offering that yet.
You were surprised people aren't that alarmed by a hypothetical offer to Dragic for $10M a year right after people just saw Hibbert receive a max offer, Gordon receive a whatever-you-wanna-call-it-kind-of-max-offer from Phoenix after playing 9 games, Asik receiving an over $8M a year deal, and Nash receiving a $12M a year deal?
Yes.
Nash is an MVP and sells tickets. Bad for basketball, but sometimes stars get overpaid and that is not abnormal (even if it's stupid).
Gordon receiving 13.75M (I believe that is correct) after proving himself as a starter playing big minutes (35+ a game on average) and showing elite talent levels, while risky & probably dumb doesn't really fit the "wtf?" category. You keep saying "after playing 9 games..." - his one really bad year (not to mention most people know he prob wasn't thrilled about being traded to NO and was in no rush to get back since they were prob ok with losing) doesn't erase all the evidence from before - even if it raises red flags. Elite SG's that are young and somewhat proven get pretty nice contracts.
Hibbert and Asik fall into the "big man" category. Lots of stupid things historically done with big men and Hibbert again only received a quasi-max offer. He was pretty productive even if the talent pool is limited.
Comparing Dragic to Asik isn't really fair. Like I said - I could bring up a list of PG's much better and proven over Dragic (TP for example) and that is a much better argument.
Dragic doesn't fall into the "common mistake" groups that you normally see: Older star (name value) or Big Man (typically massively overpaid).
People were certainly "alarmed" when the reports about Asik getting 8M came out before it happend, but now because it actually did that mean Dragic at 10M is "well, with regards to what you see right now, it's really not so bad".
I don't get why this is such a stick issue for you with regards to my take on it? Is it because the Suns are possibly going to sign him for that much? The fact is, when you hear speculation and people comment about it on here, I was surprised that so many people were seemingly cool with Dragic at 10M possibly.
Does anyone have a comparison of point guard salaries/contracts at the moment? I know Rondo is making roughly 10/11 mil this year, but I'm sure once that contract is up he'll be looking at 14/16.
Edit: Some salaries (not sure how legit this page is)
http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents
Given that Calderon is making 10 mil, and Devin Harris 8.5, I think Dragic at 10 per isn't that crazy.Point Guard
(name, team – 2012-13 salary – status)
Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers – $17.8 million – Unrestricted
John Wall, Washington Wizards – $5.9 million – Team Option ($6.7 million)
Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors – $4.0 million – Restricted ($5.3 million Qualifying Offer)
Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers – $5.4 million – Team Option ($5.6 million)
Darren Collison, Indiana Pacers – $2.3 million – Restricted ($3.3 million Qualifying Offer)
Jrue Holiday, Philadelphia 76ers – $2.7 million – Restricted ($3.8 million Qualifying Offer)
Ty Lawson, Denver Nuggets – $2.5 million – Restricted ($3.6 million Qualifying Offer)
Brandon Jennings, Milwaukee Bucks – $3.2 million – Restricted ($4.3 million Qualifying Offer)
Ricky Rubio, Minnesota Timberwolves – $3.7 million – Team Option ($4.0 million)
Devin Harris, Utah Jazz – $8.5 million – Unrestricted
Kyle Lowry, Houston Rockets – $5.8 million – Team Option ($6.2 million)
Eric Bledsoe, L.A. Clippers – $1.7 million – Team Option ($2.6 million)
Jose Calderon, Toronto Raptors – $10.6 million – Unrestricted
Brandon Knight, Detroit Pistons – $2.7 million – Team Option ($2.8 million)
Jeff Teague, Atlanta Hawks – $2.4 million – Restricted ($3.5 million Qualifying Offer)
Roddy Beaubois, Dallas Mavericks – $2.2 million – Restricted ($3.3 million Qualifying Offer)
Jarrett Jack, New Orleans Hornets – $5.4 million – Unrestricted
Beno Udrih, Milwaukee Bucks – $7.4 million – Unrestricted
Norris Cole, Miami HEAT – $1.1 million – Team Option ($1.1 million)
Eric Maynor, Oklahoma City Thunder – $2.3 million – Restricted ($3.4 million Qualifying Offer)
Mario Chalmers, Miami HEAT – $4.0 million – Team Option ($4.0 million)
Kemba Walker, Charlotte Bobcats – $2.5 million – Team Option ($2.6 million)
Greivis Vasquez, New Orleans Hornets – $1.2 million – Team Option ($2.2 million)
Reggie Jackson, Oklahoma City Thunder – $1.2 million – Team Option ($1.3 million)
Corey Joseph, San Antonio Spurs – $1.1 million – Team Option ($1.1 million)
Will Bynum, Detroit Pistons – $3.3 million – Unrestricted
Toney Douglas, New York Knicks – $2.1 million – Restricted ($3.1 million Qualifying Offer)
Nolan Smith, Portland Trail Blazers – $1.4 million – Team Option ($1.4 million)
Jeremy Pargo, Memphis Grizzlies – $1.0 million – Unrestricted*
Earl Watson, Utah Jazz – $2.0 million – Unrestricted
Sebastian Telfair, Phoenix Suns – $1.6 million – Unrestricted
Daniel Gibson, Cleveland Cavaliers – $4.8 million – Unrestricted
C.J. Watson, Chicago Bulls – $3.2 million – Unrestricted
Shaun Livingston, Milwaukee Bucks – $3.5 million – Unrestricted
Shelvin Mack, Washington Wizards – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*
Andrew Goudelock, L.A. Lakers – $0.8 million – Unrestricted*
Look at the 6 mil range DPG... do you think Dragic is on the same level as Beno Udrih (7.4 mil), Jarret Jack (5.4 mil) and worse than Devin Harris and Calderon?
Last edited by LnGrrrR; 07-03-2012 at 04:55 PM.
Both Calderon and Devin had some very solid starters years and probably got overpaid (Devin because he did it on a playoff team; Calderon because of a great ast/to ratio).
The fact is TP was much more proven and got 41M guaranteed and Rondo's first big jump has him making 11M. There is just no way IMO you can give a guy like Goran 10M and IMO it will not happen. I think 4/28M is solid and fair.
Nash won MVP over 6 years ago....You're saying that's what justifies his contract
Hopefully this works out as well for Toronto as when they traded for Olajuwon 7 years after he won MVP.
Saying Eric Gordon shows elite talent levels is hyperbole. He's shown he's a scorer with mediocre efficiency and limited ability outside of scoring. He's also never done it on a team that doesn't suck.
oh great, a player who finds reasons to miss games and pout whenever things don't go his way. Sounds like someone you'd wanna give a long term contract to.
The year before, he missed 26 games, and the year before that he missed 20. When a player that young is missing those games, it's certainly a red flag.
What things have historically happened with big men who average 5 points and 3 rebounds a game?
I could bring up a list of C's much better and proven over Asik.
How bout the common mistake group of "young player who showed flashes the last year of his rookie deal and gets paid for it"? Are you saying those players never get overpaid?
now you're getting it.
What I don't get is why Dragic asking for 10M is such a stick issue for you given other contracts being handed out.
I don't want the Suns giving Goran more than $8M a year. The fact they're interested has nothing to do with it, the fact you chose to single out Dragic when plenty of players with their own major issues are getting ridiculous deals is what I don't get.
TP and Rondo are both bargain deals compared to other contracts PGs are getting (like Chimpbrook getting 5 years $80M).
Where on Earth did I say it justified his contract. You are just making stuff up to argue now.Nash won MVP over 6 years ago....You're saying that's what justifies his contract
Hopefully this works out as well for Toronto as when they traded for Olajuwon 7 years after he won MVP.
I never said he was an elite shooting guard. I said he showed elite potential. He's never played on a good team, he was drafted to a bad franchise. I also said there were red flags.Saying Eric Gordon shows elite talent levels is hyperbole. He's shown he's a scorer with mediocre efficiency and limited ability outside of scoring. He's also never done it on a team that doesn't suck.
The year before, he missed 26 games, and the year before that he missed 20. When a player that young is missing those games, it's certainly a red flag.
It's not hyperbole to say he's shown elite talent. His PER has increased every year to the point he was top 5 for all SG's this year (limited sample, top 7 last year). He was top 15 in the league in scoring last year too. I am not saying he is a star, or doesn't have a high usage rate - I am saying that for a young player to be able to come in and show that in his first couple years shows flashes of being elite.
What things have historically happened with big men who average 5 points and 3 rebounds a game?
I could bring up a list of C's much better and proven over Asik.
You would also be correct in briging up other players compared to Asik, which is what I am doing to Dragic.
Same with older players with name power, even if their game doesn't match the salary.
Confidence issue guards that can't beat out fat Lowry and have barely started in their careers, typically do not.
Sure they do - doesn't mean it's any less surprising to me when people think those are fair contractsHow bout the common mistake group of "young player who showed flashes the last year of his rookie deal and gets paid for it"? Are you saying those players never get overpaid?
Dragic asking for it isn't an issue for me - it's people like you arguing that its not a bad contract if it happens.What I don't get is why Dragic asking for 10M is such a stick issue for you given other contracts being handed out.
I don't want the Suns giving Goran more than $8M a year. The fact they're interested has nothing to do with it, the fact you chose to single out Dragic when plenty of players with their own major issues are getting ridiculous deals is what I don't get.
Just reported: If the Nets lost out on D-Will, they were going to offer White Magic 9M.
So giving 8 figure contracts to 38 year olds because they won an MVP over 6 years ago is the norm then? What is your point? You're acting like the scenario with Nash occurs regularly when it never happens with 38 year olds.
No, you said (or at the very least strongly implied) he was an elite shooting guard right here:
Is he an elite SG or has he "shown flashes? Which is it?
Over the 2nd half of last season Dragic showed flashes of "being elite", at least by your definition. Given the amount of total cap room teams have to throw at free agents this off season, a PG who averaged 18 and 8 as a starter for 28 games last year is gonna get paid.
Big men who average 5 points and 3 boards getting the contract Asik got is the norm?
38 year olds who have "name power" getting $12M a year is the norm?
When has Dragic had a confidence issue outside of Porter coaching him?
Look at Jeremy Lin as well, he's gonna get a contract close to 10M a year with an even smaller sample size. This off season, there's loads of cap room with limited talent. Teams are desperate.
I said I wouldn't pay him more than 8 a year. I said 10M a year isn't really overpaying him that much given the contracts other players are getting.
It's my team offering Eric Gordon the contract being mentioned, by this logic I'd be defending that contract as well when I think it's stupid. I think the Suns using long term cap room on Goran when he's not a franchise player isn't smart either, but it's different since Goran has been one of my favorite players since he's been in the NBA. Like Toronto signing Nash, the Suns signing Goran would definitely be a business decision to a large extent.
You don't like EG though, you like Dragic.
When I say "norm" I dont mean to imply it happens for everyone. I mean that in the NBA, generically speaking, it is commonly known that stars (or name power) often gets overpaid and the same goes for big men.
The key difference between the "flashes" Gordon has shown vs Dragic is the reliability of the date (number of games, minutes played) and actual tangible rankings (PER and PPG) with said sample size. Those are just two metrics, but overall you see the same picture.
Point is I think Dragic at 10M is ridiculous - if he turns out to be an ultra stud - then I am wrong. I think the other contracts mentioned are ridiculous too, but with the exception of Asik (who is still a young defensive big man) there are things in place to show that type of bad contract is more common.
You think it's not that bad if he gets that - we just disagree.
Does DWill's new contract change your mind Deep?
No - while Dwill is not worth that much - he still a max player by NBA standards and an elite proven talent.
The only problem with Dragic getting that much is that he hasn't showed he can do what he did for half a season (or 1/3 if you account it was shortened) for an entire season.
But then, how can you offer Lin the same contract?
You don't, but all it takes is a few stupid people to do something stupid.
5 years 100 million is terrible IMO. He hasn't been a 20 mil per year player in 2-3 years. He's regressing, gained weight, and missing more games. He's not a 20 mil per year talent right now. If he was, the Nets wouldn't be as ty as they have been with him. At the most, he's worth 12-13 million per season. At most.
That's why it was so dumb for Dallas to let Chandler go just to get Williams.
The Bobcats have been in touch with Dragic's agent and will be making an offer, league source says.
https://twitter.com/#!/KBergCBS
Suns sign Goran for 4 years, 34M.
So he is not getting 10 millions a year
Fail
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