Obamacare: According to James Madison American government is illegitimate

[Galileo]

Why do you continue to cite a ruling from 150 years ago that was overturned in 1944?

Why don't you cite Plessy v Ferguson while you're at it? Does it make you feel better. It was overturned so just deal with it.

The ruling in 1869 was based upon the plain text of the Cons ution and the principles of the Founding Fathers. The decision in 1944 was not. That's why.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The ruling in 1869 was based upon the plain text of the Cons ution and the principles of the Founding Fathers. The decision in 1944 was not. That's why.

We have had a discussion about the founding fathers and for you to imply that thye were of uniform mind is so completely full of . Even the standrds that you claim Madison set were not violated. See my arguments above.

And you are qualified to judge what is or is not cons utional because....

Oh yeah you are some random partisan hack.

You gave one definition that was limited.

Here is another one:

the activity embracing all forms of the purchase and sale of goods and services

and another:

(Business / Commerce) the activity embracing all forms of the purchase and sale of goods and services

and another:

Exchange of goods or services for money or in kind, usually on a scale large enough to require transportation from place to place or across city, state, or national boundaries.

and another:

Commerce is the whole system of an economy that cons utes an environment for business. This is in contrast with business, the value-creating activities of an organization for profit. The system includes legal, economic, political, social, cultural, and technological systems that are in operation in any country. Thus, commerce is a system or an environment that affects the business prospects of an economy or a nation-state.

and another:

COMMERCE : COMMERCE Commerce refers to all those activities which help directly or indirectly in the distribution of goods to the ultimate consumer.

Functions of commerce : Functions of commerce 1.Removes Personal Hindrance 2.Removes Place Hindrance 3.Removes Time Hindrance 4.Removes Finance Hindrance 4.Removes Risk Hindrance 5.Removes Knowledge Hindrance

Personal Hindrance : Personal Hindrance Removed by Trader TRADER manufacturer wholesaler retailer

Place Hindrance : Place Hindrance Removed by Transport

TIME HINDRANCE : TIME HINDRANCE Removed by warehousing

Finance hindrance : Finance hindrance Banks remove this hindrance

Risk hindrance : Risk hindrance Removed by Insurance

and another:

The buying and selling of products and services between firms, usually in different states or countries.

and another:

The conduct of trade amongst economic agents. Generally, commerce refers to the exchange of goods, services or something of value, between businesses or en ies. As a broad concern, nations are concerned with managing commerce in a way that enhances the well-being of citizens, by providing jobs and producing beneficial goods and services

and another:

interstate commerce n. commercial trade, business, movement of goods or money, or transportation from one state to another, regulated by the federal government according to powers spelled out in Article I of the Cons ution. The federal government can also regulate commerce within a state when it may impact interstate movement of goods and services, and may strike down state actions which are barriers to such movement under Chief Justice John Marshall's decision in Gibbons v. Ogden (1824). Theoretically commerce is regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission (I.C.C.) under authority granted by the Interstate Commerce Act, first enacted by Congress in 1887. This authority has been diffused among various federal agencies, and the I.C.C. may soon be history.


Its obviously interstate.

[scott]

If only we could go back to the good ol' days of 1869

[Galileo]

We have had a discussion about the founding fathers and for you to imply that thye were of uniform mind is so completely full of . Even the standrds that you claim Madison set were not violated. See my arguments above.

I never said or implied that all Founders agreed on every subject. But they all agreed that insurance was not commerce.

interstate commerce n. commercial trade, business, movement of goods or money, or transportation from one state to another, regulated by the federal government according to powers spelled out in Article I of the Cons ution. The federal government can also regulate commerce within a state when it may impact interstate movement of goods and services, and may strike down state actions which are barriers to such movement under Chief Justice John Marshall's decision in Gibbons v. Ogden (1824). Theoretically commerce is regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission (I.C.C.) under authority granted by the Interstate Commerce Act, first enacted by Congress in 1887. This authority has been diffused among various federal agencies, and the I.C.C. may soon be history.

All Gibbons vs Ogden did was rule that a river flowing from one state to another or between states could be regulated by interstate commerce. Duh, that's why they ratified the Cons ution.

[Galileo]

If only we could go back to the good ol' days of 1869

God forbid we go back to the days of no IRS, no income tax, no war upon drugs, no war upon terror, no war on poverty, no CIA, no DEA, no FBI, no EPA, no department of education, no Big Brother. God forbid. I couldn't through the day without these things.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I never said or implied that all Founders agreed on every subject. But they all agreed that insurance was not commerce.



All Gibbons vs Ogden did was rule that a river flowing from one state to another or between states could be regulated by interstate commerce. Duh, that's why they ratified the Cons ution.

Lol so now the founders didn't want insurance regulated. Were any still even alive in 1869 to comment on that ruling? I know they didn't write it in the actual text and the crap that 'quoted' from Madison does not sya what you claim it does nor doe it even mention insurance.

The 1944 case is very straight forward:

1. A fire insurance company which conducts a substantial part of its business transactions across state lines is engaged in "commerce among the several States," and subject to regulation by Congress under the Commerce Clause. P. 322 U. S. 539.

Find something that postdates that and is valid to the argument the great. Even show me in the cons ution where insurance get an exemption but all this other stuff is like you are rolling around on and beating the floor screaming.

[Galileo]

Lol so now the founders didn't want insurance regulated.

dumb . The Founders wanted the states to regulate insurance.

[scott]

God forbid we go back to the days of no IRS, no income tax, no war upon drugs, no war upon terror, no war on poverty, no CIA, no DEA, no FBI, no EPA, no department of education, no Big Brother. God forbid. I couldn't through the day without these things.

What a utopia that would be in 2012

[FuzzyLumpkins]

dumb . The Founders wanted the states to regulate insurance.

Really I missed the word 'insurance' in any of the Cons ution, Madison's writings, or any of the people at the 1st Cons utional Convention.

You are reminding me of WC of trying to will to be true even though not quite as dumb.

What do interstate mean? I do see that in the Cons ution.

[Galileo]

Really I missed the word 'insurance' in any of the Cons ution, Madison's writings, or any of the people at the 1st Cons utional Convention.

You are reminding me of WC of trying to will to be true even though not quite as dumb.

What do interstate mean? I do see that in the Cons ution.

Nothing in the Cons ution says congress can regulate insurance. The idea was invented in 1944.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Really I missed the word 'insurance' in any of the Cons ution, Madison's writings, or any of the people at the 1st Cons utional Convention.

You are reminding me of WC of trying to will to be true even though not quite as dumb.

What do interstate mean? I do see that in the Cons ution.

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes

What do among the several states mean?

Is this always your schtick just refuse to acknowledge points and repeat yourself?

So far we have determined.

1) Commerce can and often is defined as including insurance and other sevices.
2) Madison did not say what you wanted him to say.
3) The Cons ution while granting the authority to regulate commerce between states at no point excludes insurance
4) The current SCOTUS precedent from 1944 agrees with me
5) You still haven't figured out which is more recent 1944 or 1869
6) The states are indeed involved in the administering of Medicaid expansion, regulatory efforts and setting up of exchanges.
7) Madison nor the Cons ution even bring up the insurance industry.
8) You think regulating insurance is what the insurance industry wants.

All in all you do an excellent job of ignoring all of the above plus more and try the bait and switch. It's weak as .

[Galileo]

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes

What do among the several states mean?

Is this always your schtick just refuse to acknowledge points and repeat yourself?

So far we have determined.

1) Commerce can and often is defined as including insurance and other sevices.
2) Madison did not say what you wanted him to say.
3) The Cons ution while granting the authority to regulate commerce between states at no point excludes insurance
4) The current SCOTUS precedent from 1944 agrees with me
5) You still haven't figured out which is more recent 1944 or 1869
6) The states are indeed involved in the administering of Medicaid expansion, regulatory efforts and setting up of exchanges.
7) Madison nor the Cons ution even bring up the insurance industry.
8) You think regulating insurance is what the insurance industry wants.

All in all you do an excellent job of ignoring all of the above plus more and try the bait and switch. It's weak as .

Insurance isn't commerce. The Supreme Court said so in 1869. You are an insurance cartel shill.

[TDMVPDPOY]

down here just had some reforms to healthcare also, mainly private healthcare...if u earn over 60k u must get private healthcare unless you dont wanna be force to pay an extra 1% tax levy, but then again private healthcare is cheap and could come out better then the tax u being slugged depending on what package u select...its still tax deductible; dunno why ppl are complaining....

getting onto the private system doesnt mean u get the full benefits of claiming the rebates for certain outlays, cause its all means tested when ur in the higher income brackets ur medical rebates end up zero....

being on the private system doesnt mean ur excluded from going onto the public system, if u cbf with the public system waiting list; u can always jump onto ur private plan u paid for and use its benefits....but seriously i see no different in the care from the public or private sector, all operations and procedures are done...could care less about hospital stay, you want to be out of there ASAP then continue to stay inside doing nothing....

[TDMVPDPOY]

down here just had some reforms to healthcare also, mainly private healthcare...if u earn over 60k u must get private healthcare unless you dont wanna be force to pay an extra 1% tax levy, but then again private healthcare is cheap and could come out better then the tax u being slugged depending on what package u select...its still tax deductible; dunno why ppl are complaining....

getting onto the private system doesnt mean u get the full benefits of claiming the rebates for certain outlays, cause its all means tested when ur in the higher income brackets ur medical rebates end up zero....

being on the private system doesnt mean ur excluded from going onto the public system, if u cbf with the public system waiting list; u can always jump onto ur private plan u paid for and use its benefits....but seriously i see no different in the care from the public or private sector, all operations and procedures are done...could care less about hospital stay, you want to be out of there ASAP then continue to stay inside doing nothing....