Spurs: Boris Diaw vs. David Lee

[FkLA]

You said you're gonna bump this when Diaw averages 7 rebounds next year even though he has yet to have a season where he averages 7 rebounds. Point being, your basing an opinion off Diaw producing in a way he hasn't produced his entire career.

Why wasn't Diaw capable of putting up good numbers when he was on a team even tier than the Warriors?

And no, both Blair and Diaw would go into cardiac arrest if they tried to play 37 MPG on the Warriors.

It's just odd all of your reasons for why Diaw is better than Lee are reasons that can't be quantified or proven because they are completely subjective.

Because Diaw clearly doesnt have the motivation to put up 20-10 on lottery teams. When it comes to putting up solid numbers on ty teams, Lee blows Diaw away. Ive conceded that tbh.

How is it subjective? Lee really is an undersized, unathletic PF who plays no D and has a 'knack' for rebounding+a solid midrange shot. Thats not that hard to see. Diaw brings more than that to the table imo, Id take him on my team over Lee. Especially an in shape Boris.

[monosylab1k]

when Dirk starts average 4 points and 4 rebounds while Kevin Love is still putting up 20 10, it'll mean Kevin Love has probably surpassed him.

I don't know tbh, you might need to check the per minute stats before jumping to wild conclusions like that!

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Lee is an inch taller than Diaw and he's more athletic than Diaw

It's subjective because you're saying you'd take a power forward who "handles the ball and sees the floor well!" over a power forward who can rebound and actually score consistently in spite of the fact that a power forward being able to rebound is a lot more important than a power forward who can play point guard. It'd be like saying, "I'll take Laundry Fields over Joe Johnson because Laundry Fields rebounds really well for a shooting guard!"

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I don't know tbh, you might need to check the per minute stats before jumping to wild conclusions like that!

Also who has a higher IQ

[Prime KG]

You keep on hanging onto stats.

Exactly! Stats don't mean ! Unless you're comparing me to Dirk, in which case you HAVE to look at the stats to show how I'm clearly better! Then when comparing me to Duncan, just throw those same stats out the window to prove Duncan is clearly better than me! Brilliant!

[FkLA]

Lee is an inch taller than Diaw and he's more athletic than Diaw

It's subjective because you're saying you'd take a power forward who "handles the ball and sees the floor well!" over a power forward who can rebound and actually score consistently in spite of the fact that a power forward being able to rebound is a lot more important than a power forward who can play point guard. It'd be like saying, "I'll take Laundry Fields over Joe Johnson because Laundry Fields rebounds really well for a shooting guard!"

Too bad Lees extra inch and athleticism doesnt help out his piss poor defense. Or change the fact that he cant contribute offensively in other ways other than assisted jumpshots. Diaw is a better defender. Has a solid jumpshot himself, adds elements to a team offensively that Lee doesnt. Lee is a better rebounder though tbf.

[FkLA]

Exactly! Stats don't mean ! Unless you're comparing me to Dirk, in which case you HAVE to look at the stats to show how I'm clearly better! Then when comparing me to Duncan, just throw those same stats out the window to prove Duncan is clearly better than me! Brilliant!

Nah brah its actually the fact that youre a great two way player and Dirk isnt. Your stats arent too shabby though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Too bad Lees extra inch and athleticism doesnt help out his piss poor defense.

so then why did you call him undersized and unathletic when Diaw is more undersize and more unathletic?

Or change the fact that he cant contribute offensively in other ways other than assisted jumpshots.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11GSW12.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1112/11SAS18.HTM

I'm curious how someone who can only contribute on offense with assisted jump shots somehow scores 13.6 points a game either at the FT line or in the paint and only 6.5 points a game off jumpers. Meanwhile, 74% of his jump shots and 54% of his inside shots are off assists, compared to 94% of Diaw's jump shots and 67% of Diaw's inside shots being off assists. Which one was the one who relied more on assists

Have you ever watched David Lee play basketball

[FkLA]

so then why did you call him undersized and unathletic when Diaw is more undersize and more unathletic?

I called him an undersized, unathletic, PF with poor defense. That doesnt apply to Diaw.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11GSW12.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1112/11SAS18.HTM

I'm curious how someone who can only contribute on offense with assisted jump shots somehow scores 13.6 points a game either at the FT line or in the paint and only 6.5 points a game off jumpers. Meanwhile, 74% of his jump shots and 54% of his inside shots are off assists, compared to 94% of Diaw's jump shots and 67% of Diaw's inside shots being off assists. Which one was the one who relied more on assists

Have you ever watched David Lee play basketball

Hes not a reliable offensive option in the post, his bread and butter is the midrange jumpshot. Would you disagree with that? I never said Diaw was any different than Lee in those areas btw, simply that he could contribute offensively in other ways because of his ballhandling and courtvision (ability to be a facilitator).

[JMarkJohns]

This thread has taught me that Lee + Spurs = Mikan

[stretch]

Lee is unquestionably better.

Diaw is more talented, but clearly doesn't come close to utilizing his talents.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Hes not a reliable offensive option in the post, his bread and butter is the midrange jumpshot. Would you disagree with that?

Seeing that 32.3% of his points come off jumpers and 67.7% of his points come at the FT line or inside the paint, I thinks it's pretty re ed to say his bread and butter is the midrange jumpshot, especially when a higher percentage of Diaw's points (42%) come off jump shots and you're trying to say Diaw contributes more than jump shots on offense and Lee doesn't. I guess when you ignore stats that are staring you in the face, you might agree that his bread and butter is something that only produces 6.5 points a game for him.

I never said Diaw was any different than Lee in those areas btw, simply that he could contribute offensively in other ways because of his ballhandling and courtvision (ability to be a facilitator).

You said David Lee's only contributions on offense are jump shots off assists, even though Diaw relies more on assists for scoring and even though only 32.3% of David Lee's points come off jump shots.

[Monostradamus]

It's been awhile since I've seen an assramming delivered like this. Fkla won't right for a month efter dis one.

[diego]

lee is better than diaw, but its pretty stupid to base that argument entirely on stats. it has more to do with diaw being inconsistent and passive than lee being more skilled though.

great players, like lebron or kobe, have had their best statistical seasons when their teams were worst. players like ricky davis, larry hughes, caron butler, have averaged 20-5-5 on crap teams, do you consider any of them better than manu, who never averaged that for a season? (i remember arguing those, i'm sure there are more and better examples; if you round up manu did 20-5-5 once). Tim Duncan probably had way worse stats than blake griffin this year, do you consider griffin better (this year, obviously career is no contest)? how about kobe v duncan, duncan can compete in accolades but statistically kobe blows him out of the water- yet your name is "duncanownskobe". pace, usage rate, composure, defense, versatility/mismatch, etc etc, there are a ton of things traditional stats dont tell you.

also, its disingenuous to act as if fit and salary are irrelevant. stephen jackson and RJ have similar stats and play the same position, but they are very different; one fits the spurs perfectly, the other never did. lee makes what, 3x what diaw does, probably more than any spur period now that tim's old deal ran out. do you think lee is better than any of the big 3 right now? sure, I'll trade manu for him to be better in 3-4 years, but for next year I dont think he significantly improves this team, because his main strengths are already strong areas for us (scoring and rebounding)- i'd even go so far as to say that those are the two biggest "fools gold" stats in the game. its not like he brings low post scoring or size or D. now, if we were talking teammate bogut, who has never sniffed 20/10, i'd package any one of the big 3 + half the roster to get him and we'd be a better team next year...

[FkLA]

Seeing that 32.3% of his points come off jumpers and 67.7% of his points come at the FT line or inside the paint, I thinks it's pretty re ed to say his bread and butter is the midrange jumpshot, especially when a higher percentage of Diaw's points (42%) come off jump shots and you're trying to say Diaw contributes more than jump shots on offense and Lee doesn't. I guess when you ignore stats that are staring you in the face, you might agree that his bread and butter is something that only produces 6.5 points a game for him.


You said David Lee's only contributions on offense are jump shots off assists, even though Diaw relies more on assists for scoring and even though only 32.3% of David Lee's points come off jump shots.

You had Boris in Phoenix for years and youre still arguing as if Boris' offensive contributions start and end with how many points he puts up, why?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You had Boris in Phoenix for years and youre still arguing as if Boris' contributions start and end with how many points he puts up, why?

that's the response you can muster up?

Nice attempt to steer the argument in a tangent away from your re ed assertion that David Lee's bread and butter is the mid range jumper and all he contributes on offense is jump shots off assists after I've provided stats that on said assertion, but it's not gonna work.

I'm still waiting to hear how all David Lee contributes on offense is jump shots off assists when only 32.3% of his points come off jumpers and he's less reliant on assists than Diaw.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lee is better than diaw, but its pretty stupid to base that argument entirely on stats. it has more to do with diaw being inconsistent and passive than lee being more skilled though.

Right, because when player A is inconsistent, passive, and has less skill than player B, it'll never show up in the numbers.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Tim Duncan probably had way worse stats than blake griffin this year, do you consider griffin better Yes (this year, obviously career is no contest)? how about kobe v duncan, duncan can compete in accolades but statistically kobe blows him out of the water- yet your name is "duncanownskobe". Kobe is better pace, usage rate, composure, defense, versatility/mismatch, etc etc, there are a ton of things traditional stats dont tell you.

also, its disingenuous to act as if fit and salary are irrelevant. stephen jackson and RJ have similar stats and play the same position, but they are very different; one fits the spurs perfectly, the other never did. lee makes what, 3x what diaw does, probably more than any spur period now that tim's old deal ran out. do you think lee is better than any of the big 3 right now? sure, I'll trade manu for him to be better in 3-4 years, but for next year I dont think he significantly improves this team, because his main strengths are already strong areas for us (scoring and rebounding)- i'd even go so far as to say that those are the two biggest "fools gold" stats in the game. its not like he brings low post scoring or size or D. now, if we were talking teammate bogut, who has never sniffed 20/10, i'd package any one of the big 3 + half the roster to get him and we'd be a better team next year...What the does how good of a fit someone is for the spurs have to do with who the better player is?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

also, its disingenuous to act as if fit and salary are irrelevant.

No, it's not. The question is who is the better basketball player. That's it. Try to wrap your bean dipped brain around the fact it's a simple question.

[FkLA]

that's the response you can muster up?

Nice attempt to steer the argument in a tangent away from your re ed assertion that David Lee's bread and butter is the mid range jumper and all he contributes on offense is jump shots off assists after I've provided stats that on said assertion, but it's not gonna work.

I'm still waiting to hear how all David Lee contributes on offense is jump shots off assists when only 32.3% of his points come off jumpers and he's less reliant on assists than Diaw.

I never said Diaw was any less reliant than Lee. Youre acting like I said Diaw is a great one-on-one scorer.

I said aside from having a solid jumpshot and semi-decent post game/ability to finish around the basket just like Lee, he also has an ability to be a facilitator that Lee doesnt have. Which is why Im asking you why youre acting like Diaws offensive contributions start and end with the amount of points he scores ?

[ElNono]

Was gonna make a Boris Diaw troll, but it's already taken

[Arnold Rothstein]

I was never for building a border wall until I read this thread. I don't want these bean brains further polluting the gene pool.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I never said Diaw was any less reliant than Lee. Youre acting like I said Diaw is a great one-on-one scorer.

I said aside from having a solid jumpshot and semi-decent post game/ability to finish around the basket just like Lee, he also has an ability to be a facilitator that Lee doesnt have. Which is why Im asking you why youre acting like Diaws offensive contributions start and end with the amount of points he scores ?

You said that David Lee can't contribute on offense in ways other than assisted jump shots. Right here since you're ignoring it:

Too bad Lees extra inch and athleticism doesnt help out his piss poor defense. Or change the fact that he cant contribute offensively in other ways other than assisted jumpshots.

So either A) admit you were talking out of your ass with that comment and it was wildly stupid or B) explain how someone who scores only 32.3% of his points off jumpers can't contribute offensively in ways other than jump shots off assists.

Now all the sudden you're admitting Lee has a "semi-decent post game/ability finish around the basket" but also adding the qualifier Diaw does too, even though Diaw's comparable "semi decent post game/ability to finish around the rim" contributes a grand total of 2.7 points in the paint/free throws a game. Forget the part about how Diaw "facilitates", explain how Diaw has the same inside scoring ability Lee has.

[diego]

No, it's not. The question is who is the better basketball player. That's it. Try to wrap your bean dipped brain around the fact it's a simple question.

i answered the simple question "who is better" in the first sentence of my post.

however, the third post in this thread is full of quotes comparing lee on the spurs vs diaw on the spurs, in which case salary and fit are relevant.

[FkLA]

You said that David Lee can't contribute on offense in ways other than assisted jump shots. Right here since you're ignoring it:

So either A) admit you were talking out of your ass with that comment and it was wildly stupid or B) explain how someone who scores only 32.3% of his points off jumpers can't contribute offensively in ways other than jump shots off assists.

Now all the sudden you're admitting Lee has a "semi-decent post game/ability finish around the basket" but also adding the qualifier Diaw does too, even though Diaw's comparable "semi decent post game/ability to finish around the rim" contributes a grand total of 2.7 points in the paint/free throws a game. Forget the part about how Diaw "facilitates", explain how Diaw has the same inside scoring ability Lee has.

The midrange jumpshot is his bread and butter. He isnt a legit post threat, the fact that he scores X-amount of points in the paint for GS doesnt change that. That shot would be his most effective weapon if he played for the Spurs or any other solid team with any type of post threat...his usage and contribution in the paint would be very similar to Diaws. Again quit acting like hes a prototypical 20-10 player or post scorer, he puts up those type of numbers because he plays for a team.