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  1. #1
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    We are all very well aware of the debate going on over the space that tax and economic policy overlap, and the argument over whether Tickle Down/Supply Side economics is the boost in the arm that our economy needs.

    Trickle Down/Supply Side economics is the idea that if top earners are taxed less, they will invest more in business infrastructure and equity markets (indirectly creating jobs and demand for goods and services) or employ more people (directly creating jobs and demand for goods and services). The theory goes that these objectives (job creation & investment) require significant resources and by taxing the wealthy less, they are left with more resources by which to do these things.

    Supply Siders, in the context of the United States Economy, are conveniently ignoring one of the most important basic fundamental economic ideas. This idea is taught early on in economics because of it's relative importance and because almost all other economic ideas use it as a foundation. That idea being: opportunity cost.

    Opportunity Cost is the principal that the true cost of something is not the nominal price you paid for that thing, but the value of all the resources expended to obtain that thing including the value of the next best alternative that was forgone.

    In the context of Trickle Down/Supply Side economics, the proponents of such a scheme suggest that if they had a lower income tax rate, then they would invest in business infrastructure and jobs. However, a lower income tax actually increases the opportunity cost of investing in business infrastructure and jobs.

    To elaborate, suppose Spacely Sprockets (an LLC wholly owned by Cosmo Spacely and that enjoys pass through taxation due to their LLC status) made incremental gross profit above his expenses of $10 million last year. (Translation: Spacely Sprockets made an additional $10 million in net income above and beyond the normal net income).

    Mr. Spacely has a few choices here. He (the firm) can:
    1. Pass the money on as net income, of which a portion of it will then become due as income taxes
    2. Use the funds for new capital investment for Spacely Sprockets, in order to expand the capabilities of the firm in the future
    3. Use the funds to hire new employees, in order to expand the capabilities of the firm in the future.

    When looking at the choices Mr. Spacely faces, we see the source of the "Tickle Down" theory: "the less taxes Mr. Spacely has to pay in (1), the more money has has for (2) and (3)." However, this ignores the reality that (2) and (3) would occur before (1). Capital expenditures and payroll expenses are tax deductible and aren't effected by the tax liability when any residual funds are passed on as net income.

    In fact, the lower the tax rate, the more expensive, in Opportunity Cost terms, it becomes to do (2) or (3). Let's look at examples of what the opportunity cost of (2) or (3) are at different tax rates.

    Scenario A: 0% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 0% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) is a full $1 he does NOT get to keep personally. At a 0% tax rate, the opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is 100% of the amount the tax payer would have been able to keep.

    Scenario B: 25% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 25% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0.75. The opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is lower than in a scenario with 0% taxes.

    Scenario C: 50% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 50% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0.50. The opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is lower than in a scenario with 0% or 25% taxes.

    Scenario D: 100% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 100% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0. There is no opportunity cost for capital investment or job creation, because Mr. Spacely doesn't get to keep that money either way.

    For reasons that should be obvious, Scenario D isn't preferable because then there is no incentive to make additional income, since the proprietor wouldn't benefit from that extra work (though he could pay himself a higher salary, but we won't get into the weeds there and we'll just assume that isn't an option).

    The part of the tax code that makes capital investment and job creation attractive is that these are pre-tax expenses. Lowering the income-tax rate doesn't provide economic incentive to hire more or invest in more capital, in fact it just raises the opportunity cost of doing so. The tax code was set up this way (with capital investment and payroll being tax deductible) specifically for the reason of incentivizing this kind of behavior.

    Trickle Down does work in a scenario where investment and employment expenses are NOT tax deductible, but I've yet to see anyone make the argument that they shouldn't be.

    To best incentivize capital investment and job creation, the income tax rate should be set at the rate which the opportunity cost is roughly equal to the rate of return earned on new investment/job creation.

    Trickle Down and Supply Siders made a major gaffe in the formulation of their theory (which has empirically failed to "trickle down" each times it's been used, resulting only in increased income inequality)l and it deserves to be called out.

    For real capital investment, and real job creation, you need a tax code which increases the opportunity cost of these things so that investing business structure and creating jobs is the best use of funds.

  2. #2
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    We are all very well aware of the debate going on over the space that tax and economic policy overlap, and the argument over whether Tickle Down/Supply Side economics is the boost in the arm that our economy needs.

    Trickle Down/Supply Side economics is the idea that if top earners are taxed less, they will invest more in business infrastructure and equity markets (indirectly creating jobs and demand for goods and services) or employ more people (directly creating jobs and demand for goods and services). The theory goes that these objectives (job creation & investment) require significant resources and by taxing the wealthy less, they are left with more resources by which to do these things.

    Supply Siders, in the context of the United States Economy, are conveniently ignoring one of the most important basic fundamental economic ideas. This idea is taught early on in economics because of it's relative importance and because almost all other economic ideas use it as a foundation. That idea being: opportunity cost.

    Opportunity Cost is the principal that the true cost of something is not the nominal price you paid for that thing, but the value of all the resources expended to obtain that thing including the value of the next best alternative that was forgone.

    In the context of Trickle Down/Supply Side economics, the proponents of such a scheme suggest that if they had a lower income tax rate, then they would invest in business infrastructure and jobs. However, a lower income tax actually increases the opportunity cost of investing in business infrastructure and jobs.

    To elaborate, suppose Spacely Sprockets (an LLC wholly owned by Cosmo Spacely and that enjoys pass through taxation due to their LLC status) made incremental gross profit above his expenses of $10 million last year. (Translation: Spacely Sprockets made an additional $10 million in net income above and beyond the normal net income).

    Mr. Spacely has a few choices here. He (the firm) can:
    1. Pass the money on as net income, of which a portion of it will then become due as income taxes
    2. Use the funds for new capital investment for Spacely Sprockets, in order to expand the capabilities of the firm in the future
    3. Use the funds to hire new employees, in order to expand the capabilities of the firm in the future.

    When looking at the choices Mr. Spacely faces, we see the source of the "Tickle Down" theory: "the less taxes Mr. Spacely has to pay in (1), the more money has has for (2) and (3)." However, this ignores the reality that (2) and (3) would occur before (1). Capital expenditures and payroll expenses are tax deductible and aren't effected by the tax liability when any residual funds are passed on as net income.

    In fact, the lower the tax rate, the more expensive, in Opportunity Cost terms, it becomes to do (2) or (3). Let's look at examples of what the opportunity cost of (2) or (3) are at different tax rates.

    Scenario A: 0% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 0% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) is a full $1 he does NOT get to keep personally. At a 0% tax rate, the opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is 100% of the amount the tax payer would have been able to keep.

    Scenario B: 25% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 25% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0.75. The opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is lower than in a scenario with 0% taxes.

    Scenario C: 50% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 50% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0.50. The opportunity cost of capital investment and job creation is lower than in a scenario with 0% or 25% taxes.

    Scenario D: 100% Tax Rate.
    If Mr. Spacely faces a 100% income tax rate, then every $1 he spends on (2) or (3) reduces the amount he gets to keep personally by $0. There is no opportunity cost for capital investment or job creation, because Mr. Spacely doesn't get to keep that money either way.

    For reasons that should be obvious, Scenario D isn't preferable because then there is no incentive to make additional income, since the proprietor wouldn't benefit from that extra work (though he could pay himself a higher salary, but we won't get into the weeds there and we'll just assume that isn't an option).

    The part of the tax code that makes capital investment and job creation attractive is that these are pre-tax expenses. Lowering the income-tax rate doesn't provide economic incentive to hire more or invest in more capital, in fact it just raises the opportunity cost of doing so. The tax code was set up this way (with capital investment and payroll being tax deductible) specifically for the reason of incentivizing this kind of behavior.

    Trickle Down does work in a scenario where investment and employment expenses are NOT tax deductible, but I've yet to see anyone make the argument that they shouldn't be.

    To best incentivize capital investment and job creation, the income tax rate should be set at the rate which the opportunity cost is roughly equal to the rate of return earned on new investment/job creation.

    Trickle Down and Supply Siders made a major gaffe in the formulation of their theory (which has empirically failed to "trickle down" each times it's been used, resulting only in increased income inequality)l and it deserves to be called out.

    For real capital investment, and real job creation, you need a tax code which increases the opportunity cost of these things so that investing business structure and creating jobs is the best use of funds.
    Ladies and Gentlemen the Carl Sagan of economics!

    You do realize that I will steal this as necessary, right? Don't worry, I will credit "some guy on a message board that I frequent"

  3. #3
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    To best incentivize capital investment and job creation, the income tax rate should be set at the rate which the opportunity cost is roughly equal to the rate of return earned on new investment/job creation.
    Would you agree that market uncertainty has a dampening affect on capital investment?

    Actually, true supply-siders argue a lower tax rate combined with a regulatory climate that removes uncertainty and encourages business growth is the way to prosperity.

    Nice how you slipped that genetically-mutated Laffer Curve into the post and turned into a linear regression equation.

  4. #4
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Actually, true supply-siders argue a lower tax rate combined with a regulatory climate that removes uncertainty and encourages business growth is the way to prosperity.
    .
    What he is saying is that the unbolded has nothing to do with it (outside of the fact that at a certain point higher taxes are counter productive, the genetically mutated laffer curve you mentioned), you could make a case for the bolded, however.

  5. #5
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Would you agree that market uncertainty has a dampening affect on capital investment?
    Yes.

    Actually, true supply-siders argue a lower tax rate combined with a regulatory climate that removes uncertainty and encourages business growth is the way to prosperity.
    Then a "true" supply sider is only half wrong?

    Nice how you slipped that genetically-mutated Laffer Curve into the post and turned into a linear regression equation.
    There is no Laffer Curve, mutated or otherwise, presented. The Laffer Curve reflects the relationship between tax rates and total tax revenue, which was never discussed in the post nor is it relavent to what is actually being discussed.

  6. #6
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    What if the money saved by lower taxes is invested in new businesses as opposed to being capex for the owner's already-existing enterprise? Would that make a difference?

  7. #7
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    What if the money saved by lower taxes is invested in new businesses as opposed to being capex for the owner's already-existing enterprise? Would that make a difference?
    Those are also tax-deductible. There may be a time lag to consider, but it would net out.

  8. #8
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    "true supply-siders"



    Yoni will defend any right-wing bull , no matter how repeatedly it's been PROVEN to be pure bull .

  9. #9
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    US corps are/have been sitting on record cash, $Ts, due to the ECONOMIC (not regulatory ) uncertainty of consumer demand. Consumers and businesses are deleveraging (aka, climbing out of debt) rather than spending.

    The upcoming Repug-created "cliff" is pure scare-mongering for the Repugs to extort greater austerity which will prolong/deepen America's Lost Decade.

  10. #10
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    That was a reasonable analysis on the surface and the logic tracks impeccably but it neglects the investment risk factor. At a high personal tax rate the return on investment (the incentive to invest) is lower. Throw in the risk factor of making the investment and NOT getting a return (highly likely in our current business climate) and the incentive to invest is even lower.

    As an example, raising the capital gains rate lowers the return (and thus the incentive to invest) on investment of after tax funds.

    Lets look at the stock market as an example. Lets say the capital gains rate is completely done away with (as some democrats in congress have proposed). The investor will essentially pay 50% of his profit on a stock purchase/sale as tax. There is risk involved in buying stock. He may not make money or may even lose money. When an investor knows that a stock price has to rise 4% just to make a measly 2% profit, what is his incentive to risk money in the stock market?

  11. #11
    Believe. mercos's Avatar
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    Voodoo economics indeed.

  12. #12
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    So, your post is just some silly academic exercise of the type in which the Obama administration has been engaged to dig us out of our economic hole?

    How many of Obama's economic team actually has business experience?

    A couple of things you forgot to mention in your scenario:

    What percent of total income does Spacely Sprocket's $10 million EBIDTA represent? That will certainly affect which of the 4 (not 3 choices) he has.

    Mr. Spacely could also, "4. Shelter the funds against taxation until it was advantageous to reintroduce them to the economy."

    Say if, Mr. Spacely owned an offshore drilling rig or a coal mine or pipeline construction company, it might be in his best interest to park whatever surplus funds he has until there is a regulatory climate that does not threaten to put him out of business.

    I understand you own a small business. Do you offer health insurance to your employees? If not, will you be exempt in 2013 or will you have to start providing coverage? If so, will your premiums increase?

    If none of the above, you're fortunate. Many small business owners will be required to either reduce staff or accept a smaller EBIDTA margin because of the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act. Many of them cannot afford it and will need to make drastic changes to their business model to accommodate the change.

    Many have already said they will be laying off staff on January 1, 2013 because of it.

    And Obamacare is just one example of how the uncertainty of regulation is affecting what companies currently do with their surpluses.

    It's a huge factor you completely ignored. So did Larry Summers.

    And, I'm assuming you both took Econ 101. I didn't -- nor did many small business owners who are having to live through the reality of Obama's application of academic theory.

  13. #13
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    you looking for bush economic team experience?

  14. #14
    Board Man Comes Home Clipper Nation's Avatar
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    The upcoming Repug-created "cliff" is pure scare-mongering for the Repugs to extort greater austerity which will prolong/deepen America's Lost Decade.
    Gotta love how partisan hacks like you have somehow managed to turn prudent fiscal responsibility, less taxes for everyone, and Cons utional government into mysterious, evil "austerity" that will flood the streets with unemployed people and make Grandma foreclose on her house....

    The REAL cause of our current economic woes are the same as it's been for decades.... the Federal Reserve created false prosperity by juicing interest rates, people fell hard for the fantasy and loaded up on malinvestments, and it all came crashing down eventually.... there isn't a stimulus package, tax hike, or bailout program in the world that can make up for the Fed's risky, inflationary policies, tbh....

  15. #15
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Well, if it's the one thing our government could use right now, it's austerity.

    We're running trillion dollar deficits ever year and have ac ulated a debt North of 15 trillion dollars. I'd say some belt tightening is in order.

  16. #16
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    Well, if it's the one thing our government could use right now, it's austerity.


    We have an Repug austerity economy now, and it sucks, will suck for 10Ms of people

    Currently Low taxes, low tax revenue, no govt counter-cyclical spending, at all levels, is exactly what the Repugs want and will do worse if they can. Govt austerity in down economy is proving to be a disaster here and in Europe, and anywhere it has been tried.

  17. #17
    Board Man Comes Home Clipper Nation's Avatar
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    So what's your suggestion? Speeding up the money printing and making the government spend more and more outside their means with each passing day has proven to be a disaster - just look at Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic, tbh....

    The solution is to end the Fed, restore sound money backed by precious metals, allow competing currencies, end the IRS, abolish the income tax, and stop wasting money on endless meddling abroad, useless pork, and draconian programs like the War on Drugs and wiretapping....

  18. #18
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The reason why, everything tried isn't working, is because of free trade. It's cheaper to outsource labor than build things here.

    Get a handle on that, and we will see a growing economy again.

  19. #19
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Eh we're ed because Bush already spent all the money that could have been spent now to stimulate the economy. Have to rely on tricks like QE that simply don't work the same way.

  20. #20
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    "we're ed because Bush already spent all the money that could have been spent now to stimulate the economy"

    the stimulus of about $700B was Barry's and it wasn't all spent.

    It should have been $2T to $3T given the size of the economy ($13T) and the depth of the Banksters Great Depression.

  21. #21
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Eh we're ed because Bush already spent all the money that could have been spent now to stimulate the economy. Have to rely on tricks like QE that simply don't work the same way.


    almost 4 years later and it's still all bush's fault.

    pathetic.

  22. #22
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    That was a reasonable analysis on the surface and the logic tracks impeccably but it neglects the investment risk factor. At a high personal tax rate the return on investment (the incentive to invest) is lower. Throw in the risk factor of making the investment and NOT getting a return (highly likely in our current business climate) and the incentive to invest is even lower.

    As an example, raising the capital gains rate lowers the return (and thus the incentive to invest) on investment of after tax funds.

    Lets look at the stock market as an example. Lets say the capital gains rate is completely done away with (as some democrats in congress have proposed). The investor will essentially pay 50% of his profit on a stock purchase/sale as tax. There is risk involved in buying stock. He may not make money or may even lose money. When an investor knows that a stock price has to rise 4% just to make a measly 2% profit, what is his incentive to risk money in the stock market?
    Two parts to my response:

    Part One:

    "Investments" in the sense it used by most people (the purchasing of stocks and bonds) for the most part don't create any jobs or employ people, because they aren't direct investment. When you buy 100 shares of Google, for example, Google has no more funds available to them to invest in equipment or hire more people.

    With that said, insofar as direct investment is concerned, then your investment is already taking advantage of the tax benefits that are inherent in capital investment and employment. And those tax benefits are not insignificant. When you invest, say $1 million, you can write off those start-up expenses to offset your first $1 million in net income via depreciation. The value of your company hasn't depreciated, however, so you still have an economic asset (worth it's market value) and you've earned $1 million of net income tax free.

    Part Two:

    No argument that a higher tax rate does lower your projected rate of return and does impact your propensity to invest. However, tax risk is significantly less than all the other risks inherent in a business and the degrees to which we are talking, are fairly minor. But they are still real and you make a good point.

  23. #23
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    So what's your suggestion? Speeding up the money printing and making the government spend more and more outside their means with each passing day has proven to be a disaster - just look at Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic, tbh....

    The solution is to end the Fed, restore sound money backed by precious metals, allow competing currencies, end the IRS, abolish the income tax, and stop wasting money on endless meddling abroad, useless pork, and draconian programs like the War on Drugs and wiretapping....
    Add the Environmental Protection Agency, Homeland Security, and Department of Education to that list and you've got a deal.

  24. #24
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    almost 4 years later and it's still all bush's fault.

    pathetic.
    Don't you know?

    In another 4 years, it will still be Bush's fault.

  25. #25
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Don't you know?

    In another 4 years, it will still be Bush's fault.
    George W. Bush ended the world. Okay, it's out there.

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