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  1. #1
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    In 2012, the United States is at the end of a decade-long experiment in borrowing money to push into the economy. Now each candidate for president would like for us to believe that he is going to put an end to this profligacy. We are told that this election presents voters with a stark choice between two very different visions of government: one that is active on behalf of its citizens, and one that gets out of the way. That’s true. Yet neither offers a credible way to stop borrowing money to pay for what he wants to do.


    Instead, voters must choose between a Democrat with a detailed budget plan that can’t pass in Congress—and doesn’t really attempt to unwind the spending—and a Republican challenger with a budget plan that lacks details, can’t pass in Congress, and unwinds the spending with magic. Both candidates fear the public will punish anyone who takes away what has been given so freely for the last 10 years. Obama addresses this by not doing it. A best guess at Mitt Romney’s and Paul Ryan’s budgets shows that they will address this by pretending to do it. Both would have us continue to amass debt to enact their ideas of what the economy needs—tax cuts or investment. In that way, our stark choice is really between two different versions of large government.
    http://www.businessweek.com/articles...big-government

  2. #2
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    There is no mystery, in Washington or anywhere else, about what actually needs to be done to bring government spending under control. One option is to do nothing. In its long-term budget outlook for 2012, the CBO presents a future it calls the “baseline scenario.” This is simply what would happen if Congress passes no new spending bills before January. The Bush tax cuts will expire. Automatic cuts to defense, Medicare, and discretionary spending will go into effect. To a pure deficit hawk, it looks pretty good. According to the CBO, it starts reducing debt as a percentage of GDP in 2016, and by 2022 it’s down to 61 percent (the same target the Ryan plan aims for). But there’s a reason the baseline scenario is often referred to as the “fiscal cliff”: It will limit growth in real GDP next year to half a percent.


    This abrupt timeline will be destructive to the economy and terrible for jobs. Yet whether we make them soon or make them later, eventually cuts of this size will be necessary. This is fifth-grade math. No further study is needed. No panel of experts needs to be assembled. The baseline scenario, of course, won’t happen. Both parties are now negotiating under the shared assumption that neither can tolerate it. But as it in fact eliminates spending, it serves as a useful comparison. Any politician trying to sell a plan needs to prove that it’s better than doing nothing.
    same

  3. #3
    Believe. mercos's Avatar
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    Good question for everyone. Is the fiscal cliff actually better than BOTH candidates economic plans, at least in terms of getting the government's finances in order?

  4. #4
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    The Fiscal cliff is a figment of the Congress. They created it as way NOT to do their jobs, they can destroy it.

  5. #5
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I thought Obama was the most frugal POTUS evah

  6. #6
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    who said so?

  7. #7
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    the OP emphasizes how both candidates essentially float big government by adding to debt.

  8. #8
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    that's not frugality

  9. #9
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    Yet neither offers a credible way to stop borrowing money to pay for what he wants to do.
    Not suprising since americans on both sides wouldn't accept a plan that really did that.

  10. #10
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    how true. nobody wants to take away the goodies. that gets punted ahead a decade.

  11. #11
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    "Yet neither offers a credible way to stop borrowing money to pay for what he wants to do."

    False. Obama wants to reduce the deficit (borrow less money) by raising taxes on $250k+, while Gecko/Ryan want to cut taxes on the 1% and raise on the 99%, with no regard for the deficit.

    "fixing" the unbroken SS is easily fixed by removing the cap on SS and applying it also to unearned income.

    ACA reduces payments (debt) to for-profit Medicare services, while Gecko/Ryan keeps those payments at same level but denies care to and increases payments by Medicare patients.

  12. #12
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    sounds like Obama's your man, boutons.

  13. #13
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    not really, as disappointed as many of his followers, but Gecko/Ryan would be more long-term disasters for the 99%, like the ones we are still suffering from and paying for from the dubya/ head/Repug Reign of Error, 2001 - 2008.

  14. #14
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Obama's been a fairly reliable continuation of the foregoing, yes

  15. #15
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    how true. nobody wants to take away the goodies. that gets punted ahead a decade.
    Which is why I hope Romney wins. They both take us down the same road but Romney might give us some economic bubbles along the way.

  16. #16
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    not seeing it. how?

  17. #17
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    you like the prospects for investors such as yourself, or something like that?

  18. #18
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    Obama's been a fairly reliable continuation of the foregoing, yes
    I said during dubya's rain of on us that his policies and their costs would live long after him, and they have.

    How does anybody stop $100Bs going into Iraq and Aghanistan?

    How to stop paying for decades of Repug war vets care?

    How to give people back their houses that were stolen by the banks?

    How do you reverse the huge, deficit-producing, inequality-increasing dubya tax cuts?

    How does the dubya housing/credit bubble Banksters Great Depression get turned around from so deep in a couple years?

    Then remember O'Connell's priority for the Repugs was to defeat Obama, to deny and/or trash any success, NOT jobs, NOT the economy, NOT the deficit, NOT any big issue, just STOP OBAMA, automatically obstruct him and Dems as not being legitimately worth of governing.

  19. #19
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    you like the prospects for investors such as yourself, or something like that?
    Exactly. I don't see Obama reinflating the housing boom, creating an energy boom, etc. More likely is 4 more years of flat or declining economy imo. Perhaps Romney will strip away regulation, spend lot's of money, and create a new bubble that I can benefit from.

    What more can I ask from a candidate if the people won't accept real solutions.

  20. #20
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    America is really about 20% poorer than what is reflected in people's standard of living. Americans have a choice:
    A) reduce their standard of living by 20%, meaning a horrible depression and probable political instability resulting in loss of the Republic and splintering into successor states, or
    B) continue to borrow to maintain the present standard of living as long as possible, until the inevitable collapse resulting in loss of the Republic and splintering into successor states.

    Frankly, the best decision is probably B. It's like a death row inmate deciding whether he wants his last meal to be A) a small dinner salad or B) a big-ass multi-course buffet of his favorite foods. Yeah, A is probably healthier, but what ing difference does it make?

    Either way, people like me win in the end.

  21. #21
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    and the little guy gets squashed like a worm. cool story.

  22. #22
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    Analysis: Paul Ryan Voted to Add $6.8 Trillion to the Federal Debt

    – Beginning with the Bush tax cuts, since 2001 Ryan has voted to add $2.5 trillion worth of tax cuts to the deficit.

    – In the last 11 years, Paul Ryan voted for every bill that called for an increase in defense spending. In total, this has added $1.9 trillion to the deficit.

    – Paul Ryan also voted to increase non-defense discretionary spending — the very thing he is pushing to cut now. He voted to spend $270 billion on Medicare Part D (all of which was unpaid for). He also added $80 billion to the deficit by voting for an agriculture bill in 2002, and he added another $20 billion in 2003 when he voted for changes to military retirement. Lastly, he voted for increased borrowing authority for flood insurance, adding yet another $17 billion to the deficit.



    http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...votes-deficit/

  23. #23
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    and the little guy gets squashed like a worm. cool story.
    Worms need to accept that they are just worms.

  24. #24
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    Either way, people like me win in the end.
    How do you win?

  25. #25
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Worms need to accept that they are just worms.
    delusion dies hard. ever read the Quixote?

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