Legitimate rape

[LnGrrrR]

I would argue it's not okay; and, precisely because of the argument you raise. Who are we to make an arbitrary decision on when it's okay to kill a baby?

That's a fair position to take, I think, and the brightline there is the joining of semen/egg to produce... what, a zygote?

[Yonivore]

Wow that's exactly what Obama said

No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.

I think there should be just as much, if not more, deliberative action taken by government, before any unborn child is killed, as there is before any convicted criminal is executed.

The only abortions for which I can even see a legitimate reason to debate are those where a medical doctor has do ented the probability the mother, the baby, or both will not survive the pregnancy or birth.

There should be no exceptions for any other type of abortion.

[Yonivore]

That's a fair position to take, I think, and the brightline there is the joining of semen/egg to produce... what, a zygote?

My position has always been that as long as reasonable people disagree on when a human life begins, we are obligated, as a society, to err on the side of life and not terminate it.

[CosmicCowboy]

No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.

I think there should be just as much, if not more, deliberative action taken by government, before any unborn child is killed, as there is before any convicted criminal is executed.

The only abortions for which I can even see a legitimate reason to debate are those where a medical doctor has do ented the probability the mother, the baby, or both will not survive the pregnancy or birth.

There should be no exceptions for any other type of abortion.

Uhhhh...I don't think the mother can wait on abortion row 15-20 years for her request to make it to the supreme court...

[Yonivore]

Uhhhh...I don't think the mother can wait 15-20 years for her request to make it to the supreme court...

If they can rule on Bush vs. Gore in days, I'm sure the courts can accommodate.

[ElNono]

Wow that's exactly what Obama said

Yoni is just connecting the dots...

[ElNono]

If they can rule on Bush vs. Gore in days, I'm sure the courts can accommodate.

Which one of those two were executed?

[LnGrrrR]

My position has always been that as long as reasonable people disagree on when a human life begins, we are obligated, as a society, to err on the side of life and not terminate it.

I think what makes it hard is that, while the byline of "life" is obvious, the "human" part is much less so, and the "person" part much less. Obviously, one cell may be a "human" in scientific terms, in that it has our DNA, but not many people would refer to a cell or cluster of cells as "human". Once those cells develop into the fetal stage, it becomes more a question of personhood and how we define a "person".

I know it's cliche, but after the birth of my child I had to rethink my views on abortion. The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

Should we make abortions illegal, and push them underground, knowing that kids will still have them performed in less safe places? Should the taking of that life be outlawed anyways, even given the potential for those backroom procedures? Determining balances and things of that nature. My views certainly aren't set in stone. I'm not convinced that abortion should be outlawed, but I also think abortions should be performed as early as possible.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see why they're provided, at all -- except when there's a determination the life of the mother is at risk.

Wow that's exactly what Obama said

No, it's not but, you go ahead an delude yourself.

With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or otherwise, as long as there's an exception for the mother's health and life, and this did not contain that exception.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/pr...al-debate.html

(I know it's in the video you posted, but yoni lives in too much denial to actually watch it.)

And you're welcome, CC. We answered my question for yoni where you failed.

[Yonivore]

I think what makes it hard is that, while the byline of "life" is obvious, the "human" part is much less so, and the "person" part much less. Obviously, one cell may be a "human" in scientific terms, in that it has our DNA, but not many people would refer to a cell or cluster of cells as "human". Once those cells develop into the fetal stage, it becomes more a question of personhood and how we define a "person".

I know it's cliche, but after the birth of my child I had to rethink my views on abortion. The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

Should we make abortions illegal, and push them underground, knowing that kids will still have them performed in less safe places? Should the taking of that life be outlawed anyways, even given the potential for those backroom procedures? Determining balances and things of that nature. My views certainly aren't set in stone. I'm not convinced that abortion should be outlawed, but I also think abortions should be performed as early as possible.

Would it affect your position if you knew that, because we are conducting so many legal abortions these days, the actual number (not the rate) of life-threatening complications and deaths to the mother are far greater than when they were illegal?

Doing something over a million times a year is going to result in quite a few problems, even if it's a small percentage of the total procedures.

[Spurminator]

The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc. I'm not sure if the snipping of an umbilical cord should be the symbolic cut to determine personhood.

IMO the key difference is that the newborn not absolutely dependent on a single specific person (its birth mother) for those needs.

[Spurminator]

Would it affect your position if you knew that, because we are conducting so many legal abortions these days, the actual number (not the rate) of life-threatening complications and deaths to the mother are far greater than when they were illegal?

Doing something over a million times a year is going to result in quite a few problems, even if it's a small percentage of the total procedures.

Sure, and the number of car wrecks rose significantly following the mass production of cars.

[ElNono]

The "able to be supported as an independent person/not a parasite" argument seems weak to me, as even a baby removed from its mother is still dependent for food, protection, etc etc.

But at that point somebody other than the mother can provide those needs.

[Wild Cobra]

You must think a miscarriage is murder too.

Why?

Because a miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion?

[Wild Cobra]

Intentionally induced. Yep.

Agreed.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's the idealogical disconnect with conservatives I don't get...

They're against expanding welfare, to save money. Which is fine, except that means that all those mothers who have multiple children won't get as much support, meaning those children will suffer.

There used to be a stigma involved with carelessly having children. Now, it's trendy, and at one time a few years back... a fad... The stigma aspect needs to return. People need to feel shame for such actions and let the shame be a deterrent to being careless. It used to be that families would take care of each other. Now when you have generations of families living off welfare, it's even harder to deter such problems.

They're against increasing funding towards education (more money doesn't necessarily equate to better education, but there's obviously some link there).

I can see the need for help in some areas. I would prefer that spending not be done in these areas by the federal government. The sates and local communities should fund this (10th amendment.) However, since education has been nationalized, the spending should be prioritized to only those with good school records.

Granted, I think Yoni does actually make some interesting points. As our ability to provide life-saving services for children born early increases, the moral question becomes, in my eyes, shadier. I'm against third-trimester abortions except in emergency cases, I'm unsure on 2nd-trimester, and I'm relatively ok with 1st.

Band-aid solutions.

The proper solution would be one that eliminates the need for abortions. That's called responsibility. This nation is so lacking in responsibility. Irresponsible voters electing irresponsible politicians.

[Wild Cobra]

So he didn't say it.

Thanks.

lol technically

Yes, technically is is no.

If you have 100 senators voting, 48 vote yes, 47 vote no, and 5 vote present...

The 48-47 does not win because it's only 48% of 100 votes..

It is a chicken NO vote.

[George Gervin's Afro]

There used to be a stigma involved with carelessly having children. Now, it's trendy, and at one time a few years back... a fad... The stigma aspect needs to return. People need to feel shame for such actions and let the shame be a deterrent to being careless. It used to be that families would take care of each other. Now when you have generations of families living off welfare, it's even harder to deter such problems.

I can see the need for help in some areas. I would prefer that spending not be done in these areas by the federal government. The sates and local communities should fund this (10th amendment.) However, since education has been nationalized, the spending should be prioritized to only those with good school records.

Band-aid solutions.

The proper solution would be one that eliminates the need for abortions. That's called responsibility. This nation is so lacking in responsibility. Irresponsible voters electing irresponsible politicians.

people need to be shamed lol..... the same local areas that are against teaching critical thinking skills? the same local areas that are readying for a civil war?..

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, technically is is no.

If you have 100 senators voting, 48 vote yes, 47 vote no, and 5 vote present...

The 48-47 does not win because it's only 48% of 100 votes..

It is a chicken NO vote.

Did you all get together and decide to not understand the question and ignore the actual answer earlier?

Well done.

[Yonivore]

Sure, and the number of car wrecks rose significantly following the mass production of cars.

Abortions aren't accidental.

[CosmicCowboy]

Abortions aren't accidental.

One could make the argument that the actual collision is not the accident. It was the mistake in driving judgement (accident) that led to the collision.

The same case could be made for the accidental pregnancy.

[Wild Cobra]

One could make the argument that the actual collision is not the accident. It was the mistake in driving judgement (accident) that led to the collision.

The same case could be made for the accidental pregnancy.

Is that anything like not killing someone in an auto accident, then finding and killing them?

The mistake in judgement leads to conception, then murder. Wouldn't it be the same thing?

[CosmicCowboy]

WC, Yoni and all the other pro-lifers in here...I think I can speak for everyone here and say that were you to accidentally knock a girl up we would certainly respect your conviction to ask the girl to marry you and raise the child together. In the same exact example I would respect her decision to choose not to marry and abort the fetus early term if that were her wishes. I actually think that more RESPONSIBLE people tend to choose abortions because they really did think through the ramifications of their decision instead of just saying "OH! it would be SO much fun to have a little baby that loves me!"

[Wild Cobra]

WC, Yoni and all the other pro-lifers in here...I think I can speak for everyone here and say that were you to accidentally knock a girl up we would certainly respect your conviction to ask the girl to marry you and raise the child together. In the same exact example I would respect her decision to choose not to marry and abort the fetus early term if that were her wishes. I actually think that more RESPONSIBLE people tend to choose abortions because they really did think through the ramifications of their decision instead of just saying "OH! it would be SO much fun to have a little baby that loves me!"

I can't agree with that. Being responsible means living with your actions. To kill an unborn child should be the absolute last resort, but it is far too common. There are other options. Adoption comes to mind as the most responsible option for someone who does not with to be responsible for a child.

[CosmicCowboy]

I can't agree with that. Being responsible means living with your actions. To kill an unborn child should be the absolute last resort, but it is far too common. There are other options. Adoption comes to mind as the most responsible option for someone who does not with to be responsible for a child.

Fine

Then live your life to those standards.

Don't try to force your standards on us.