Did TD EVER have a worst supporting cast than this?

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Weaker than this?



Pop quiz: How many made an all star team? One. Bonus question: How many are still in the league?

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

I think the bolded factoid says it all. Western Conference Finals with those players starting. Your Laker team had Kobe in his prime, LO, and a puppy Bynum who was actually able to play 82 games.

Duncan was truly a beast his first 8 years.

[LkrFan]

I think the bolded factoid says it all. Western Conference Finals with those players starting. Your Laker team had Kobe in his prime, LO, and a puppy Bynum who was actually able to play 82 games.

Duncan was truly a beast his first 8 years.

No, it doesn't.

Porter > Smsh
Daniels > Vjacic
Ferry > Ck

Where is Farmar? Remember when PP won Finals MVP over VladRad? I do. What about McKie? True TOSB if I ever saw one. On and on...

Bynum? Please. Go look up how many mpg he had that year. He was hardly the player he is today.

And Kobe is still a beast after 16 years...

[Wild Cobra Kai]

No, it doesn't.

Porter > Smsh
Daniels > Vjacic
Ferry > Ck

Where is Farmar? Remember when PP won Finals MVP over VladRad? I do. What about McKie? True TOSB if I ever saw one. On and on...

Bynum? Please. Go look up how many mpg he had that year. He was hardly the player he is today.

And Kobe is still a beast after 16 years...

Cook started 24 games? Vujacic started 4? Not really comparing apples to oranges when you're comparing your pathetic bench to our pathetic starters.

[LkrFan]

Cook started 24 games? Vujacic started 4? Not really comparing apples to oranges when you're comparing your pathetic bench to our pathetic starters.

[Killakobe81]

Because one player can't do the first, but certainly CAN do the second, if he's worth his salt. , Iverson probably made the playoffs 2/3 times with worse casts than Kobes YEAR OF FAILURE. His Finals Team may have been worse.
/goods

If you beleve that bull you are either:

1. Prone to exaggeration
2. an Iverson fan
3. Dont no about basketball

But it is defintely at least 2 of the 3 ...

[Sean Cagney]

LOL Tim Duncan made the WCF with Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry as starters and with decrepit Porter the third best player on the team.

This here will always win the argument........ Cherokke Parks got minutes one year too and so on. Tim had some next to him a few years, but still brought them far.

[DMC]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debatable.

2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.

3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no . But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a le is a team achievement, then how the is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.

You acting like the Lakers and their bandwagon fanbase aren't loathed league wide

[BigTex342006]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, and .286 (Robinson shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes a game by then).

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 record over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500 ball.

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 les in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Hornets out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...

[LkrFan]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, .286 Robinsin shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes by then.

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 les in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Bobcats out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...

Bobcats didn't exist in 1996.

[BigTex342006]

Two comments:

1) We tanked to get Bynum. Anybody that saw that Laker team play knows the tank job was in full effect. Making the playoffs that year would have been futile.
2) Those two first round exits were to a loaded, clearly superior Suns team. , if not for Horry's cheap shot in 2007 Duncan is sitting on 3 rangs. Real talk. They had you guys on the ropes until Horry's kill shot.

Tanked to get Bynum? You are not tanking when your most important player is playing over 40 minutes and shooting 25-30 times a game. That is trying as hard as you can. I seriously doubt Kobe would not try and win games...you should know better than that.

As far as thinking the hip check determined Phoenix's result in the playoff in 2007... get real. Amare was out one game...he was in Phoenix's line-up for the other 5 games. Phoenix lost 3 of those, including the game opener at home. SA owned Phoenix during their run and gun phase...

(obviously I meant Charlotte and not bobcats...)

[LkrFan]

Tanked to get Bynum? You are not tanking when your most important player is playing over 40 minutes and shooting 25-30 times a game. That is trying as hard as you can. I seriously doubt Kobe would not try and win games...you should know better than that.

As far as thinking the hip check determined Phoenix's result in the playoff in 2007... get real. Amare was out one game...he was in Phoenix's line-up for the other 5 games. Phoenix lost 3 of those, including the game opener at home. SA owned Phoenix during their run and gun phase...

(obviously I meant Charlotte and not bobcats...)

Kobe would try to score against anybody. No matter the cir stances.

The tank job fix was in. it all you want.

[nowhereman523]

Look at the shooting percentages of the supporting cast of Duncan's in the 2003 playoffs:

.403, .414, 372, .386, .419, .438, .286 Robinsin shot .542 but was playing only about 20 minutes by then.

Duncan led his team in points, rebounds, assists, block shots, and minutes played on the way to the championship. Could Kobe ever put a team on his back like Duncan did in 03? Nope.

As far as career's go, I think Duncan get's the nod. The only thing Kobe leads Duncan in is championships 5-4 and Kobe was the best player on maybe 2 and a half of those.

Playoff stats:
Duncan - 22.3 pts 12.1 rbs 3.4 asts 2.5 blks .501 fg% 25.3 PER 98 def R
Kobe - 25.6 pts 5.1 rbs 4.7 asts 1.4 stls .448 fg% 22.4 PER 106 def R

ROY - Duncan 1 Kobe 0
MVP's - Duncan 2 Kobe 1
FMVP - Duncan 3 Kobe 2
All NBA - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 14/16
All D - Duncan 13/15 Kobe 12/16
Rape Charges - Duncan 0 Kobe 1
Trade demands - Duncan 0 Kobe 1 (that I know of)

Kobe in his prime led his team to a 121-125 over a stretch of 3 years as lead dog. Duncan in his prime could have probably led a group of YMCA players to the playoffs and done better than under .500

I love the mentality of "well, Duncan never repeated..." That is ignorant, you could easily say that Duncan won 3 les in 5 years (arguably two plays away from a 5-peat), while Kobe and Shaq won 3 in 5 as well.

Kobe is/was a great player, but no doubt had he went to the Bobcats out of high school, we aren't having this discussion. I'll take Duncan...

Nice.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Two comments:

1) We tanked to get Bynum. Anybody that saw that Laker team play knows the tank job was in full effect. Making the playoffs that year would have been futile.
2) Those two first round exits were to a loaded, clearly superior Suns team. , if not for Horry's cheap shot in 2007 Duncan is sitting on 3 rangs. Real talk. They had you guys on the ropes until Horry's kill shot.

Uh, no. The series was tied, but if you look at the history of the Suns series from 2003,2005, and 2007, we had a better record on their floor than our own, and they had the opportunity to extend the series to two more home games, and whiffed. That team was talented, but short in the nuts department. You should be ashamed you lost to them. They had everyone back for game 6 (we were still short Horry) and they couldn't take a road game to bring it back to PHO. Not elite. It wouldn't have mattered, though, Like I told you, we had a better playoff record on their floor than our own. We were taking game 7 if it came to that. They knew it, too.

[LkrFan]

Uh, no. The series was tied, but if you look at the history of the Suns series from 2003,2005, and 2007, we had a better record on their floor than our own, and they had the opportunity to extend the series to two more home games, and whiffed. That team was talented, but short in the nuts department. You should be ashamed you lost to them. They had everyone back for game 6 (we were still short Horry) and they couldn't take a road game to bring it back to PHO. Not elite. It wouldn't have mattered, though, Like I told you, we had a better playoff record on their floor than our own. We were taking game 7 if it came to that. They knew it, too.

- you need to look at that stained roster the Lakers trotted out and explain the bolded to me again.

We'll agree to disagree on this topic. I wholeheartedly believe that during the game in question, until Horry's cheap shot, they were going to beat you guys. They had all of the momentum until they were Horry'd. That 2007 le should get an asterisk as well. The better team was cheated, I mean lost.

[Clipper Nation]

You acting like the Lakers and their bandwagon fanbase aren't loathed league wide

"But... but... they hate us because we win! Our frontrunning bag takes have nothing to do with it!"

[ElNono]

Why is this thread still going? This thread effectively ended when LkrFan said he doesn't hate Lebron and everybody proceeded to laugh their asses off...

[ambchang]

Unlike those players, when Kobe won, he always repeated the following year as champion.

More evidence as to the quality of the make up of the team.

Balanced, strong teams have a better chance of repeat that teams that rest on one or two stars, because the things that can go wrong on a main cog in the team is higher than things going wrong for an entire make up of the team.

[ambchang]

1. Kareem missed two and he is greater than Everyone mentioned on this list sans MJ ...and that is even debatable.

I hope I am reading this wrong, but please, please don’t tell me that you are throwing the great KAR under the bus to save Kobe, please.

Kareem missed two playoffs in an era when there were 10 playoff teams, not 16. Also, it was at the height of the cocaine era, team management is totally different than the modern NBA, and there is the ABA competing with the NBA. It was, if anything, a total aberration in the history of professional basketball.

2. Duncan was never head coached by: Del Harris, Rambis or a "diminished" Rudy T. If PJ stayed that never happens. Kobe missing playoffs. Kobe was also hurt and missed games but dont let facts blind your hate. But bottom line he did miss the playoffs.

Rudy T won 2 championships, how was he diminished? Del Harris has been a head coach for 14 years, and once as the coach of the year, what is wrong with that? Yes, Rambis sucked.[/quote]

3. Of course rings are a team accomplishment, no . But out of major team sports NBA is most impacted by the stars. But the hypocrisy of Duncan supportes are ridiculous.

Duncan disciple: Championships are overated, although it's one of the reasons Duncan is greater than Malone. It's a team accomplishment so counting rings are dumb.

Riddle me this? IF winning a le is a team achievement, then how the is missing the playoffs a individual one? and if one of the pillars of the argument is Duncan's career win%, never losing a Finals and never missing the playoffs only career stats, advanced stats and individual honors are left.

A star, if good enough, can carry a team to the playoffs on his own because of the exact reason you said, that NBA is most impacted by stars. On the other hand, the disparity between top stars in the NBA is relatively small, and the reasons they win or not win a ring, and most importantly in this argument, how many rings they win, at the end is due to the quality of coaching, teammates, and sometimes luck.

Duncan > Malone not because of just the # of rings, Duncan > Malone because of his ability to lead his team to rings. If Duncan had crap teammates throughout his lifetime and never won a ring, he would still > Malone because of his leadership, his defense, and his ability to run an offense.

Rings matter, when discussing HOF players. Period. Spur fan just hate 5>4 ...hence plenty of the hate on here.

Having Shaq win 3 of those rings for you doesn’t mean 5>4. You acting like a ring = a ring = a ring = a ring. That is not true. Kobe was the clear #2 in 2 of those rings, and that is not even arguable, and he was, in my mind, a clear #2 in ring #3 as well, but some revisionist are now putting equal billing on Kobe and Shaq on that #3, which I absolutely disagree.

There is plenty of hate in here because of this over simplification of greatness, and you have personified it. Yes 5>4 mathematically, but to say that Kobe > Duncan because he has one more ring while ignoring all the other cir stances is being stupid. I can see how a bandwagon fans can filter things to that level of detail (which is none), because bandwagoners do not know the history of the game, they do not know the context. But you, who clearly knows the history of the game, who clearly has a huge amount of knowledge, just chose to stick your head in the sand, the resort to 5>4 as some form of holy argument, when you know that this is not the case at all.

[Killakobe81]

I hope I am reading this wrong, but please, please don’t tell me that you are throwing the great KAR under the bus to save Kobe, please.

Kareem missed two playoffs in an era when there were 10 playoff teams, not 16. Also, it was at the height of the cocaine era, team management is totally different than the modern NBA, and there is the ABA competing with the NBA. It was, if anything, a total aberration in the history of professional basketball.


Rudy T won 2 championships, how was he diminished? Del Harris has been a head coach for 14 years, and once as the coach of the year, what is wrong with that? Yes, Rambis sucked.

Amb, reading like Timmy ... is FUN-DA-MENTAL. In what world is saying

1. "Kareem is better than ANYONE mentioned in this thread (including Kobe) sans MJ but he missed the playoffs twice... throwing him under the bus to save Kobe? Like my boy DPG says "That doesnt make ANY sense". I just gave Kareem respect in a forum where he hardly gets any commesirate with his impact to the game of basketball. He missed it twice, that is just a fact. Kobe missed it once Duncan's team lost to an 8th seed happens.

2. Im sorry but how is Duncan's leadership any more tangible than just saying Duncan is better because I said so? I dont doubt duncan is PROBABLY a great leader, but we dont know that. And to be honest (just like PJ with MJ and Kobe) I would argue Pop is the real leader of the Spurs anyway. I give Duncan credit (Pop does too) for ALLOWING Pop to lead, because Duncan could be an ass ...but he lets Pop berate him like he is Bonner from time to time and that is great leadership. It's alos great leadership to let a better leader (Pop) lead.

* and before you post some bull about the Kobe/Shaq feud, Kobe let Fisher lead, agreed to let PJ come back etc. Dont get me wrong Kobe's leadership style is more abrasive and less desirable than Duncan's but they both get results ...

3. Im not here to argue that Kobe wasn't a #2 (2000-2001) that doesnt matter. Magic was a #2 early on his career no one makes those arguments. Sure Duncan was the alpha for all 4 of his ... kudos. Still doesnt mean he had the greater career. But I will make that case when kobe is done. For now we shall agree to disagree.

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.

Rudy T sucked. He was a good coach for the Rox but his cancer or maybe winning those two les sucked the life out of him. Or just maybe the L.A spot-light was too much for him. Del was a smart coach but had no balls.

[BigTex342006]

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.


Malone's career regular season win shares are more than Duncan simply because he played 19 years. If you look at win shares per 48, Duncan is higher, .214 to .205. Playoff win shares are decidedly higher for Duncan than Malone...

Malone was a regular season beast but typically was less efficient in the playoffs, going from .516 to .463 fg%...pretty significant drop and that is a huge sample size. That and he was bounced out of the first round nine times...

fwiw

[Killakobe81]

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.


Malone's career regular season win shares are more than Duncan simply because he played 19 years. If you look at win shares per 48, Duncan is higher, .214 to .205. Playoff win shares are decidedly higher for Duncan than Malone...

Malone was a regular season beast but typically was less efficient in the playoffs, going from .516 to .463 fg%...pretty significant drop and that is a huge sample size. That and he was bounced out of the first round nine times...

fwiw

again Im not a stat head but how is career win % skewed by the length of their career. Shouldnt the fact Malone hung as he declined lowered his win share numbers. And per 48 mins stats are so full of crap. there are plenty of per 48 numbers that make role playing rebounders appear to be Dennis rodman but when they play more minitues, it's a case of diminishing returns. Duncan is a great player one of the greatest I have seen though let's ne honest he really is a center since David left, not a PF ... so the comparison is faulty to begin with. But part of what made Malone great was his durability and ability to log heavy minutes at an advanced age. Pop has been protecting duncan minutes wise for years now. Plus either Duncan or the front-office has been playing the PF masquerade for over 6 years now ...

[ambchang]

Amb, reading like Timmy ... is FUN-DA-MENTAL. In what world is saying

1. "Kareem is better than ANYONE mentioned in this thread (including Kobe) sans MJ but he missed the playoffs twice... throwing him under the bus to save Kobe? Like my boy DPG says "That doesnt make ANY sense". I just gave Kareem respect in a forum where he hardly gets any commesirate with his impact to the game of basketball. He missed it twice, that is just a fact. Kobe missed it once Duncan's team lost to an 8th seed happens.

What does this have to do with Duncan losing to an 8th seed?
Also, you did throw Kareem under the bus. Highlighting his moments of failure under totally different cir stances, twisting it to equate it to Kobe’s moment of failure is throwing him under the bus.

2. Im sorry but how is Duncan's leadership any more tangible than just saying Duncan is better because I said so? I dont doubt duncan is PROBABLY a great leader, but we dont know that. And to be honest (just like PJ with MJ and Kobe) I would argue Pop is the real leader of the Spurs anyway. I give Duncan credit (Pop does too) for ALLOWING Pop to lead, because Duncan could be an ass ...but he lets Pop berate him like he is Bonner from time to time and that is great leadership. It's alos great leadership to let a better leader (Pop) lead.

* and before you post some bull about the Kobe/Shaq feud, Kobe let Fisher lead, agreed to let PJ come back etc. Dont get me wrong Kobe's leadership style is more abrasive and less desirable than Duncan's but they both get results ...

Duncan never hit on his teammates wife for one. Didn’t force Robinson out of the Spurs like Malone with Dantley.
Leading by example is a great thing. I am not ready for Duncan to come out and demand trades, saying your young teammate is a sack of , and running a HoF center out of town to feed his ego.

3. Im not here to argue that Kobe wasn't a #2 (2000-2001) that doesnt matter. Magic was a #2 early on his career no one makes those arguments. Sure Duncan was the alpha for all 4 of his ... kudos. Still doesnt mean he had the greater career. But I will make that case when kobe is done. For now we shall agree to disagree.

So 5>4, despite you admitting that at least 2 of the 5 were Kobe as a second option?

4. Lastly Im not stat lover so I wont make the case for Malone. But there are career win share numbers that favor Malone. I posted an article that had the details some months back. To be honest, I was shocked. But it just goes to show you how stats can be "juked" (The Wire!!!!) to fit whatever argument you want to make. I dont care what the stats say Duncan is superior to Malone and I can see that with my eyes and the RINGS bear that out as well. I feel the same about Kobe over Duncan but it's much closer.

You mean this?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
Malone played many more years, which makes sense to me.
Career win shares takes into account team success as well, so teammates do matter. It’s actually much closer to rings than other traditional stats like points and rebounds, etc ... In other words, saying career wins is an iffy argument to rank one player over another is much closer to saying number of rings is an iffy argument to rank one player over another than points/rebounds, etc ...

Rudy T sucked. He was a good coach for the Rox but his cancer or maybe winning those two les sucked the life out of him. Or just maybe the L.A spot-light was too much for him. Del was a smart coach but had no balls.

Rudy didn’t suck, he didn’t have players to play his brand of ball. His model has always been simple, have a center of gravity to suck in the defensive attention, then distribute the ball accordingly during doubles-triples.
He had the center of gravity, just didn’t have him distributing the ball like he wanted.

[Killakobe81]

What does this have to do with Duncan losing to an 8th seed?
Also, you did throw Kareem under the bus. Highlighting his moments of failure under totally different cir stances, twisting it to equate it to Kobe’s moment of failure is throwing him under the bus.


Duncan never hit on his teammates wife for one. Didn’t force Robinson out of the Spurs like Malone with Dantley.
Leading by example is a great thing. I am not ready for Duncan to come out and demand trades, saying your young teammate is a sack of , and running a HoF center out of town to feed his ego.


So 5>4, despite you admitting that at least 2 of the 5 were Kobe as a second option?

You mean this?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
Malone played many more years, which makes sense to me.
Career win shares takes into account team success as well, so teammates do matter. It’s actually much closer to rings than other traditional stats like points and rebounds, etc ... In other words, saying career wins is an iffy argument to rank one player over another is much closer to saying number of rings is an iffy argument to rank one player over another than points/rebounds, etc ...

Rudy didn’t suck, he didn’t have players to play his brand of ball. His model has always been simple, have a center of gravity to suck in the defensive attention, then distribute the ball accordingly during doubles-triples.
He had the center of gravity, just didn’t have him distributing the ball like he wanted.

Please READ IT AGAIN and WHERE did I say that Kareem's failure is equal to Kobe's? Please enlighten me. You seem to take a great leap here, to try and attack an opposing view. I was just finding a "glory hole" in your argument. Kobe missed the playoffs so has Kareem twice. Kobe missiing it is more glaring, sure ...but they BOTH missed the playoffs ...and both are considered by most better than Duncan .. But Duncan has never missed the playoffs so you still have THAT.

Kobe maybe a ty leader, Malone too. I could not care less. He led two le teams and was co-leader of another and was the clear #2 on two others. Maybe he helped lead maybe it was pretty much all PJ. Im rating Kobe's career (so far) and his success on the court and his failures as well. Im not interested if he studied Ken Blanchard, Steven Covey or even McArthur, or Ulysses S Grant. (look them up) We all know he studied MJ and what we have is a lessor version of MJ ... but that is STILL greater than Timmy. No shame in Tim being the third greatest player of this era (post MJ) or Shaq being fourth...besides Lebron may end up passing all of them. happens.

[BigTex342006]

again Im not a stat head but how is career win % skewed by the length of their career. Shouldnt the fact Malone hung as he declined lowered his win share numbers. And per 48 mins stats are so full of crap. there are plenty of per 48 numbers that make role playing rebounders appear to be Dennis rodman but when they play more minitues, it's a case of diminishing returns. Duncan is a great player one of the greatest I have seen though let's ne honest he really is a center since David left, not a PF ... so the comparison is faulty to begin with. But part of what made Malone great was his durability and ability to log heavy minutes at an advanced age. Pop has been protecting duncan minutes wise for years now. Plus either Duncan or the front-office has been playing the PF masquerade for over 6 years now ...

I am not sure where you read that Malone had better win shares than Duncan (whatever that means). The point of basketball reference per 48 on win shares is to even out the stat based on time spent on the court and games played. They list total win shares (something like amount of extra games won based on a player's performance, etc), and win shares per 48 minutes. It is simply win shares divided by overall minutes played. Malone has a higher overall number simply because he played so many more games. That is like saying that Karl Malone was the second greatest player of all time based on his overall points total.

I don't like per 48 when comparing stats straight up, because nobody plays that many minutes. Per 36 is much more telling...and only so if you are comparing players with fair to alot of minutes and fairly close in minutes played. You can't use the stat for a scrub that plays a few minutes and extrapolate it to 36. Comparing a player that plays 28-34 minutes (for example) as his coach is trying to limit playing too much is fair to compare to someone that plays 38-40 minutes.

As all stats go, either one of these is not the end all....but they are a useful tool to guage effectiveness on the court per minute played.

Everybody nationally claims a huge drop for Duncan because his numbers have dropped (he has defensively dropped no doubt)....but if you look at what he does for the time he spends on the court, his numbers are mind-numbingly consistent...

[Killakobe81]

I am not sure where you read that Malone had better win shares than Duncan (whatever that means). The point of basketball reference per 48 on win shares is to even out the stat based on time spent on the court and games played. They list total win shares (something like amount of extra games won based on a player's performance, etc), and win shares per 48 minutes. It is simply win shares divided by overall minutes played. Malone has a higher overall number simply because he played so many more games. That is like saying that Karl Malone was the second greatest player of all time based on his overall points total.

I don't like per 48 when comparing stats straight up, because nobody plays that many minutes. Per 36 is much more telling...and only so if you are comparing players with fair to alot of minutes and fairly close in minutes played. You can't use the stat for a scrub that plays a few minutes and extrapolate it to 36. Comparing a player that plays 28-34 minutes (for example) as his coach is trying to limit playing too much is fair to compare to someone that plays 38-40 minutes.

As all stats go, either one of these is not the end all....but they are a useful tool to guage effectiveness on the court per minute played.

Everybody nationally claims a huge drop for Duncan because his numbers have dropped (he has defensively dropped no doubt)....but if you look at what he does for the time he spends on the court, his numbers are mind-numbingly consistent...

Here is the article

Like I said I dont agree, and Im pretty sure Salt city Hoops has an agenda with making that case just like you guys have a biased reason here. But just pointing out how you can pick and choose stats to support whatever you want. They make a strong case and BR has done the same on here. But spur fans only enjoy BR's "truth bombs" when Kobe is the target. What a bunch of hypocrites ...