CNN: Mayor Julian Castro awards a million dollar contract to a South Korean company

[Winehole23]

And I addressed your objection and said if prices rise to historical norms that cost rises to 5.1 cents which is still less than halk the 11 cents he just agreed to pay.

It's well known that green energy isn't cost efficient. Reading this contract as sop to progressives or as positioning for higher office -- i.e., as a deal without any tangible benefit for SA but with a very tangible premium -- seems plausible to me. However, it was puzzling to me that you undermined this very reasonable point by fiddling with the numbers in a misleading way. Even referring to the historical mean is a bit misleading: looking at the last ten years, there's plenty of volatility there.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's well known that green energy isn't cost efficient. Reading this contract as sop to progressives or as positioning for higher office -- i.e., as a deal without any tangible benefit for SA but with a very tangible premium -- seems plausible to me. However, it was puzzling to me that you undermined this very reasonable point by fiddling with the numbers in a misleading way. Even referring to the historical mean is a bit misleading: looking at the last ten years, there's plenty of volatility there.

The fact is that we are sitting right on top of billions and billions of cubic feet of natural gas so supply is not an issue.

If they made purchasing this solar energy totally optional at a higher cost for those that supported it I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

[Winehole23]

The fact is that we are sitting right on top of billions and billions of cubic feet of natural gas so supply is not an issue.

in a globalized commodity market, does it much matter wrt to prices where the supply is?

[CosmicCowboy]

in a globalized commodity market, does it much matter wrt to prices where the supply is?

Natural gas is not a global commodity without expensive processing. It is transported by pipelines which are local.

[coyotes_geek]

If they made purchasing this solar energy totally optional at a higher cost for those that supported it I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

Austin tried that. Built a $200 million dollar solar facility under the idea that Austin greenies would volunteer to pay a higher rate to buy power from that plant. Needless to say the plan failed miserably.

Not saying that I'm against solar or wind in any way, just that the idea of getting customers to volunteer to pay a higher rate to cover the additional costs for it doesn't work.

[Das Texan]

I really dont get why San Antonio or for that matter any city in the state of Texas refuses to truly take advantage of the natural gas under its soil.

Since we wont allow natural gas to be exported really, why not just put it to use, which would help the economy.

Building natural gas plants would make too much sense, which is why it wont happen.

When gas prices are at their historic lows, you tap into that source of energy. But yet, we dont. Makes smart sense.

[Winehole23]

Natural gas is not a global commodity without expensive processing. It is transported by pipelines which are local.

so, the gas companies give us a break for being close by?

[CosmicCowboy]

Austin tried that. Built a $200 million dollar solar facility under the idea that Austin greenies would volunteer to pay a higher rate to buy power from that plant. Needless to say the plan failed miserably.

Not saying that I'm against solar or wind in any way, just that the idea of getting customers to volunteer to pay a higher rate to cover the additional costs for it doesn't work.

So why should we agree for CPS to pay 2 or 3 times the base cost for solar power KNOWING they are going to pass that cost on to us?

[CosmicCowboy]

so, the gas companies give us a break for being close by?

C'mon, you are smarter than that. Yeah supply/demand, more gas available than being consumed = cheap natural gas.

[coyotes_geek]

So why should we agree for CPS to pay 2 or 3 times the base cost for solar power KNOWING they are going to pass that cost on to us?

That's for everyone to form their own individual opinion on. If the current cost differential is most important to you, then you shouldn't like this. If you're willing to consider factors beyond the current cost differential, maybe you come up with something different.

[CosmicCowboy]

That's for everyone to form their own individual opinion on.

EXACTLY

And solar is a PERFECT "local" solution. I'm looking at putting panels on my house, but solar is a STUPID "grid" solution.

[Winehole23]

Yeah supply/demand, more gas available than being consumed = cheap natural gas

the inference that NG prices will remain stable for the lifetime of the power plant is, well, just an inference and maybe not even a very plausible one. the historical volatility of oil/NG prices seems to cut against it.

[coyotes_geek]

EXACTLY

And solar is a PERFECT "local" solution. I'm looking at putting panels on my house, but solar is a STUPID "grid" solution.

Agreed. Solar for rooftops, wind for grid.

[CosmicCowboy]

the inference that NG prices will remain stable for the lifetime of the power plant is, well, just an inference and maybe not even a very plausible one. the historical volatility of oil/NG prices seems to cut against it.

Fracking has changed the game. South Texas is loaded with natural gas.
http://www.rrc.state.tx.us/eagleford...Production.pdf

[Winehole23]

not disputed.

I do dispute however that we can know what future prices on a global market will be with any reasonable degree of certainty. the supply may be reliable, but demand isn't; the rest of the world can be hard to predict.

[CosmicCowboy]

not disputed.

I do dispute however that we can know what future prices on a global market will be with any reasonable degree of certainty. the supply may be reliable, but demand isn't; the rest of the world can be hard to predict.

If we were talking fractional differences, yes, but not voluntarily choosing to buy energy now at 3X our current cost to produce.

[boutons_deux]

"It's well known that green energy isn't cost efficient"

it's well known the external costs of carbon and nuclear energy are underestimated or excluded.

[Das Texan]

Since you cant really export natural gas outside of the US, then its really a moot point what prices in Europe are.

Gas prices are at historical lows.

Even at the historical average, you are looking at a better deal than a solar plant.

Even at slightly above the historical average you are looking at a better deal than a solar plant.

Its not until you get to the stupidity of 2007-2008 when you are starting to look at a solar plant being a good deal and that period was an historical anomaly.

Solar is good, dont get me wrong. If you want to invest in solar that builds solar panels for residences, great deal for South Texas. Especially if you then offer incentives for people to obtain said solar panels. This will do a great job of alleviating future pressure off the power grid.

But to flat out talk about global natural gas prices (for liquified) natural gas and how they may affect future prices here, you have a number of factors to occur which are currently frankly impossible.

The amounts of natural gas available in Texas alone is amazing. And its not really even being brought to the surface due to the historically low prices today. With a proper mix that utilizes natural gas possibly as its #1 energy source of this region, you have a strong and very solid energy plan for South Texas for decades to come and at great rates for the citizens.

[boutons_deux]

"Since you cant really export natural gas outside of the US, then its really a moot point what prices in Europe are."

There are 10 applications for licenses to build LNG terminals around the US, so you CAN export NG. Libya's been doing it across the Med to Europe for many years.

btw, Keystone Pipeline coming the way TX coast is so the Canadian oil and products can be exported. Will have NO effect of US gas, etc prices. Property owners get the risks of destruction of their property from the inevitable numerous pipeline spills while corps get all the profits.

[Winehole23]

Since you cant really export natural gas outside of the US, then its really a moot point what prices in Europe are.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ss-natural-gas

[Th'Pusher]

Even at $4 gas (historical average) cost per KWH is only 5.1 cents.

How is this a smart move for San Antronio?

Castro is clearly factoring in the enevitable carbon tax.

[Das Texan]

Until those licenses are approved its very difficult to export natural gas currently.

And I know you CAN export it, its not a matter of it being done or not.

Its simply a matter of the United States really allowing for it to be done.

[boutons_deux]

Until those licenses are approved its very difficult to export natural gas currently.

duh

http://www.nola.com/business/index.s...oposed_fo.html

http://www.cheniere.com/LNG_terminal...pass_lng.shtml

http://www.sempralng.com/

etc, etc.

LNG exporting will be huge, as indicated by the license applications.

Why wouldn't it be? NG supply exceeds US demand, so the exporters have plenty of product.

[Das Texan]

I apologize we can export natural gas to 19 nations currently.

They are

Australia
Bahrain
Canada
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Guatemala
Honduras
Israel
Jordan
Korea
Mexico
Morocco
Nicaragua
Oman
Peru
Singapore


Mexico makes the most sense, but they are ing morons who refuse to allow the pipelines to be connected.

[Das Texan]

The Department of Energy has said they arent really interested in granting exports to additional nations at this time.


So until the political climate is changed (which it could in a few months), dont plan on seeing this huge exportation of natural gas to places like China.