What REALLY happened in Benghazi

[RandomGuy]

He didn't ask for that. He just asked for you to tell what you thought created the anti-American Muslim fundamentalst sentiment against the US. I could do that in about a paragraph but heaven forbid you actually answer thoughtfully or intelligently when you can instead cling to what you want to believe.

To be fair to him, he is attacked quite a bit. It goes back and forth from both sides.

Kind of a vicious cycle and hard to break.

I dunno, it gets tiring to be angry all the time. I would rather have a good discussion at the moment. Guess I am getting old, heh.

[RandomGuy]

Hmm? They want Kerry as they want his seat in The senate. They don't want Rice so they are smearing her credibility.

They want to embarrass the administration in any way possible.

Maddow is a fairly astute analyst, IMO, but misses the point that Kerry can decline to accept the nomination, and Obama can easily nominate someone who won't swing control of the Senate, or push it closer to that point.

[CosmicCowboy]

He didn't ask for that. He just asked for you to tell what you thought created the anti-American Muslim fundamentalst sentiment against the US. I could do that in about a paragraph but heaven forbid you actually answer thoughtfully or intelligently when you can instead cling to what you want to believe.

GFY anklebiter

[Th'Pusher]

They want to embarrass the administration in any way possible.

Maddow is a fairly astute analyst, IMO, but misses the point that Kerry can decline to accept the nomination, and Obama can easily nominate someone who won't swing control of the Senate, or push it closer to that point.

Sure. As capable as Kerry is, I wouldn't nominate him for anything. Sucks for him, but that's reality. The GOP is clearly pushing for a Kerry nomination and it is 100% because they think brown can win his seat.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

GFY anklebiter

Translation: I cannot make an intelligent argument so I hide behind bluster.

It's transparent

[FuzzyLumpkins]

To be fair to him, he is attacked quite a bit. It goes back and forth from both sides.

Kind of a vicious cycle and hard to break.

I dunno, it gets tiring to be angry all the time. I would rather have a good discussion at the moment. Guess I am getting old, heh.

Sorry but that's no excuse. I am attacked pretty consistently but I don't act like a petulant . I may be a mean bas but I don't deviate from an attempt at an intelligent approach.

I don't see it as him being defensive about anything other than an inability to present an articulate argument.

[CosmicCowboy]

Translation: I cannot make an intelligent argument so I hide behind bluster.

It's transparent

No it means that there are posters in here that I will carry on a meaningful dialogue with all day long if I want to. You aren't one of them. You are just a stupid anklebiter that I choose to ignore.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No it means that there are posters in here that I will carry on a meaningful dialogue with all day long if I want to. You aren't one of them. You are just a stupid anklebiter that I choose to ignore.

But you're not ignoring me. Are you including RG in that too because his response was similar when you were asked about giving an intelligent response?

See this is the thing: your word ring hollow. If you actually believe what you are saying that is delusional and sad.

So why do you think that AQ hates us? Or is that not meaningful discussion?

[CosmicCowboy]

But you're not ignoring me. Are you including RG in that too because his response was similar when you were asked about giving an intelligent response?

See this is the thing: your word ring hollow. If you actually believe what you are saying that is delusional and sad.

So why do you think that AQ hates us? Or is that not meaningful discussion?

Are you that ing stupid? They hate us because we keep ing with them or support others that with them.

[boutons_deux]

"So why do you think that AQ hates us"

OBL said he wanted to attack USA because US military was occupying/defiling the sacred sands of his native Saudi Arabia (after the 1st Gulf War).

since then, USA has busted into Iraq-for-oil, killed 1000s of Muslim women and children, as in bombing wedding parties, drone attacks, and of course supported Israeli ethnic cleansing of Gaza. What's not to hate?

[RandomGuy]

Are you that ing stupid? They hate us because we keep ing with them or support others that with them.

That is the conundrum.

AQ ideology is an idea, not an individual.

Dealing with individuals is easy. Bullets and bombs, problem solved.

Dealing with ideas is harder. The way to kill them is to discredit them. The best way to do that is to clearly show them to be false.

Supporting oppressive dictators feeds the idea, namely that we are evil, and support oppression, which is not altogether untrue in such cases.

You aren't going to convince the current crop of nutters that their idea is wrong, but you can keep them from getting the next crop of nutters to buy their bull before they become nutters.

We spent trillions of dollars on military actions in the last decade or so.

I can't help but wonder how things would be different, if we had spent as much or even a small percentage on smartly structured foreign aid and sanctions.

[CosmicCowboy]

That is the conundrum.

AQ ideology is an idea, not an individual.

Dealing with individuals is easy. Bullets and bombs, problem solved.

Dealing with ideas is harder. The way to kill them is to discredit them. The best way to do that is to clearly show them to be false.

Supporting oppressive dictators feeds the idea, namely that we are evil, and support oppression, which is not altogether untrue in such cases.

You aren't going to convince the current crop of nutters that their idea is wrong, but you can keep them from getting the next crop of nutters to buy their bull before they become nutters.

We spent trillions of dollars on military actions in the last decade or so.

I can't help but wonder how things would be different, if we had spent as much or even a small percentage on smartly structured foreign aid and sanctions.

I don't know either but I'm pretty sure we don't want the muslim brotherhood running Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Bahrain.

[boutons_deux]

I don't know either but I'm pretty sure we don't want the muslim brotherhood running Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Bahrain.

It's Their Country

Why should the MIC have any say in how other countries are run?

[RandomGuy]

I don't know either but I'm pretty sure we don't want the muslim brotherhood running Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Bahrain.

My take:

It isn't our business who they pick. Their country, they get to pick.

They get the right to pick anyone they want to, as long as they don't start shoving money at AQ or violent nutters. The second they do, we slam the hammer down.

We just need to find ways to, (bemused) empower the secularists and liberals in those countries, so that their religious nutjobs have some restrictions on the power they can exercise.

AQ and fundamentalist islamists hate secular liberalism, and with good reason, as it is the prime force keeping them from imposing their vision of "perfect" governments.

[CosmicCowboy]

OK, I'm clearly outnumbered. I think you all would have an issue with $300 a barrel oil if the religious nutters decided to play vengeful god with our economy.

[CosmicCowboy]

I can remember gasoline shortages back when I was driving a freaking L88 Vette that got 9mpg and had a 16 gallon gas tank. We had lines at gas stations all over the country just like the ones they had in New Jersey after the recent hurricane/storm.

[RandomGuy]

I can remember gasoline shortages back when I was driving a freaking L88 Vette that got 9mpg and had a 16 gallon gas tank. We had lines at gas stations all over the country just like the ones they had in New Jersey after the recent hurricane/storm.

I would point out that the US is far less vulnerable now than we used to be per unit of GDP. We use less oil per dollar for a host of reasons. Fuel standards for cars being a prime driver. (hehe)

Given that we are set to outpace the Saudi's for oil production, if the ME goes to , the oil we produce will get hugely valuable. The prospect of $300/bbl for our oil companies from the poor sods in China should make you giddy.

We are far closer to viable electric cars than we were in the 1970's as well. I know you think they are not there yet, but such an oil crisis would make it happen right quick, and that would have a synergetic effect of permanent oil demand destruction, meaning the ME would get much lower prices for the oil they had left, and that would not be coming from US. , $300/bbl prices would spur a uva lot of domestic development here.

Things have changed.

(edit)
China is now the worlds #2 consumer of oil, ahead of Japan. Back in the 1970's it was an oil exporter.
China's oil consumption will almost certainly surpass ours at some point in my lifetime.

[ChumpDumper]

I think you are assigning something approaching reason to AQ's motivations. As a group, AQ is not bound by nor operates under rule of reason.

I respectfully disagree. The real AQ (not all these "affiliates" that stupidly get lumped in with the original) had/has a pretty specific agenda and philosophical/political/religious bases for that agenda. It's definitely not the reasoning we are used to nor would we be expected in any way to agree with it, but they aren't just some kind of chaotic en y blowing up at random.

GFY

[TeyshaBlue]

nat gas says hi!

[TeyshaBlue]

I respectfully disagree. The real AQ (not all these "affiliates" that stupidly get lumped in with the original) had/has a pretty specific agenda and philosophical/political/religious bases for that agenda. It's definitely not the reasoning we are used to nor would we be expected in any way to agree with it, but they aren't just some kind of chaotic en y blowing up at random.

I guess I've not discovered the "real" (core?) AQ. Got a cliff notes summary for me or point me in a particular direction for some info?

[RandomGuy]

I guess I've not discovered the "real" (core?) AQ. Got a cliff notes summary for me or point me in a particular direction for some info?

THe "affiliates' tend to have more local concerns.

Strategy

On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi published extracts from Saif al-Adel's do ent "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[60][61] Abdel Bari Atwan summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages to rid the Ummah from all forms of oppression:

Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.
Incite local resistance to occupying forces.
Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.
Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.
The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.

Atwan also noted, regarding the collapse of the U.S., "If this sounds far-fetched, it is sobering to consider that this virtually describes the downfall of the Soviet Union."[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

Lots of good information there.

Read up on the writings of Sayyid Qutb, there is some basic stuff at the wiki. Basically his was a call to fundamentalism to begin with. I found his stuff creepy and hard to slog through, but it is the kind of stuff that makes for revolutionary fervor, and makes people start having to prove how devout they were or be judged as "apostates".

Start with that, then view the actions of the US through that kind of prism.

[TeyshaBlue]

THe "affiliates' tend to have more local concerns.

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[RandomGuy]

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Sorry, it was wikipedia. DOn't know why the board HTML handlers put a hyperlink in my snarky "quote by" thing.

Here is a bit on Qutb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

I would note that he was executed by the Egyptian government in 1966.

[ChumpDumper]

I guess I've not discovered the "real" (core?) AQ. Got a cliff notes summary for me or point me in a particular direction for some info?

The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is a great book about the formation of AQ. You can google a bunch of interviews with him about the book if you don't have the time for the whole thing. I'd pay attention to the influence of guys like Sayyid Qutb on both Bin Laden and Zawahiri.

[TeyshaBlue]

Let's not confuse logic with linear exposition.

Qutb outlined his ideas in his book Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq (aka Milestones). Other important principles of Qutbism include:[citation needed]
Adherence to Sharia as sacred law accessible to humans, without which Islam cannot exist
Adherence to Sharia as a complete way of life that will bring not only justice, but complete freedom from servitude, peace, personal serenity, scientific discovery and other benefits
Avoidance of Western and non-Islamic "evil and corruption," including socialism and nationalism.[5]
Vigilance against Western and Jewish conspiracies against Islam
A two-pronged attack of 1) preaching to convert and 2) jihad to forcibly eliminate the "structures" of Jahiliyya[6]
The importance of offensive Jihad to eliminate Jahiliyya not only from the Islamic homeland but from the face of the earth.