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  1. #51
    Lol Crews jjktkk's Avatar
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    The key with Bonner, is to have a alternate plan in the playoffs, once/if Matty doesn't produce.

  2. #52
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    The problem i have with plus/minus is that it generally has less to do with one player than it does with who is playing with him and against them.

    Example
    PG-Chalmers
    SG-Wade
    SF-Lebron
    PF-Bosh
    C-Joell Anthony

    Anthony is a valuable player is spurts (i can't stress spurts enough) but playing with the big 3 20 minutes a game is obviously going to inflate his value when he looking at plus/minus. He could play poorly but James could be going for 15 in 5 minutes and his plus minus would be say +9

    Example
    PG-Cole
    SG-Allen
    SF-Battier
    PF-Pitman
    C-Joell Anthony

    Anthony could actually be playing well with this lineup and but the other teams outscores this lineup 15-5 and Joell would have -10. It can be misleading especially when looking at 10 post season games and about 10 mpg compared to 75 games and 20mpg. It would like Ichiro batting .316 in 524 at bats and in the postseason hit .250 in 20 at bats. The playoffs (in both scenarios) isn't nearly enough of a sample size and really depends on who he is playing with and who he is playing against.

  3. #53
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    I'm unsure who else there is to blame for that. It's not like Rasho and Nazr asked not to play. Also, really terrible analogy.
    It was a great analogy Blair ,not playing, didn't cost us the le back to back seasons.
    Rasho had no business being on the floor against Dirk , so we didn't play him, that had no barring on us losing the series either.

  4. #54
    Believe. Brunodf's Avatar
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    Blair should be benched, he is playing horrible lately, Diaw or Splitter should start.

  5. #55
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    It was a great analogy Blair ,not playing, didn't cost us the le back to back seasons.
    Rasho had no business being on the floor against Dirk , so we didn't play him, that had no barring on us losing the series either.
    That's precisely why it's a ty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the le.
    Last edited by Obstructed_View; 12-06-2012 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #56
    Pop, the Mastermind superjames1992's Avatar
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    12 rebounds in 23 minutes.

  7. #57
    Believe.
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    Spurs have the learn to win without Matt Bonner. Pop should figure out its playoff roster halfway through the season and march out the same roster night after night. No more play Matt Bonner or start Blair in the regular season, then when they fail in the playoffs (Bonner fails but Blair is still decent off the bench), quickly switch to Diaw. If Pop doesn't believe in either Bonner or Diaw, sign someone new or make a trade. This way, the Spurs will learn to win through defense and grinding games out instead of Bonner's 3's. Because those 3's will not be falling in the playoffs.

  8. #58
    Fan Since 93 SayTown's Avatar
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    Bonner=Fools Gold

  9. #59
    Veteran ginobilized's Avatar
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    Bonner is playing well right now. That's a good thing.
    We are winning. That's a good thing.

    Given the cir stances of Bonner's minutes going away, he's handled this very well and has kept sharp and actually improved some of his weakness in defense and rebounding.

    Nothing but positives there.

  10. #60
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    This is all irrelevant anyway. Wages of Wins showed that nearly all championship teams get the vast majority of a team's production in the playoffs is from the top 6 players. Bonner is great for racking up regular season wins, and should be glued to the bench for the playoffs.

    One problem with the Spurs roster is that it's hard to find a clear 7- or 8-man playoff rotation. Duncan/Splitter/Diaw up front, Green/Manu/Kawhi/Jax on the wings, and Tony/Neal at PG is as close as I can get, and that's 9 players.

  11. #61
    Veteran HI-FI's Avatar
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    Bonner is playing well right now. That's a good thing.
    We are winning. That's a good thing.

    Given the cir stances of Bonner's minutes going away, he's handled this very well and has kept sharp and actually improved some of his weakness in defense and rebounding.

    Nothing but positives there.
    exactly. unlike Blair who I worry will have another meltdown if he doesn't get minutes, Bonner just got the message and realizes he needs to work a lot harder at things, especially if his shot isn't falling. I'd love nothing more for him to prove the haters wrong in the playoffs, of course he hasn't done that yet. So if we could just use him minimally, and if he is able to come up with a decent shot or rebounding in limited minutes, it will be great for us.

  12. #62
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    I don't know but he sure is better than Blair.

  13. #63
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    It's all good. I've had this conversation over the past 4 seasons with Mel_13, z0sa, and probably a bunch of other guys... the whole "he isn't as bad as people make him out to be" is a common theme during the regular season. But it's shortsighted, and Matty sure loves to prove me right when May rolls around.
    We had conversations about Bonner in 08-09 and 09-10, but it wasn't this one. To the extent that I've posted about Bonner since then, it was to insist that those building a case against him stick to actual facts. With all the limitations in Bonner's game, it's ridiculous that people have to make stuff to bolster their case.

  14. #64
    Believe. KL2's Avatar
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    The Spurs must limit Bonner's minutes at all costs. I think one of the biggest reasons the offenses has been so ty in the po's was because Pop made Bonner such a big factor in the regular season.

    These guys get used to his floor spacing in the RS, but once the playoffs start that floor spacing is gone because the guy ALWAYS chokes, teams start letting him brick wide open 3s or his release is too slow. That spacing that was there is gone, it totally changes the offense, guys are then trying to figure out how to score.

    Get rid of him or limit his minutes and the Spurs will eventually adapt like they are now.

    Having Bonner is like having a key player get injured every single time the playoffs start.

  15. #65
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    He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

    Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.
    I don't care if Bonner drops 20 and 20. I still wouldn't trust him in the playoffs. Where the heck was that Bonner? If he was just not playing as hard before then it seems like putting him in the 5th big position worked. Which is why some compe ion is usually good for teams. If players know they're guaranteed minutes it's all too easy to mail it in.

  16. #66
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    That's precisely why it's a ty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the le.
    It's ironic Avery Johnson did the same thing against the Warriors and got killed for it. When you are the team that wins more games you don't adjust to the other team. It's the other team that should worry about adjusting to you. It sends a ridiculous message to your players. We're the better team but we're trying to adjust to them.

  17. #67
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    This is all irrelevant anyway. Wages of Wins showed that nearly all championship teams get the vast majority of a team's production in the playoffs is from the top 6 players. Bonner is great for racking up regular season wins, and should be glued to the bench for the playoffs.

    One problem with the Spurs roster is that it's hard to find a clear 7- or 8-man playoff rotation. Duncan/Splitter/Diaw up front, Green/Manu/Kawhi/Jax on the wings, and Tony/Neal at PG is as close as I can get, and that's 9 players.
    It's not a problem. The 2007 championship team had a 10 man rotation.

  18. #68
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    We had conversations about Bonner in 08-09 and 09-10, but it wasn't this one. To the extent that I've posted about Bonner since then, it was to insist that those building a case against him stick to actual facts. With all the limitations in Bonner's game, it's ridiculous that people have to make stuff to bolster their case.
    Fair enough, Mel

  19. #69
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    That's precisely why it's a ty analogy. Benching the center rotation for a 62 win team DID cost the Spurs the le.
    Spurs won 63 in '06-07, 09-10 we won 61 games which Center are you talking about?

    Rasho couldn't defend Marquis Daniels/Stackhouse in their small ball lineup. When Dirk actually played the 4 and when Damp/Diop played center Mohammad was in the game and was a better defender than Rasho.

    Blair didn't match-up well against the two trees known as Gasol & Randolph. He even had trouble defending the likes of Darrell Arthur. McDyess was a better option even at 36 he was still very athletic and mobile. He also could consistently hit jumpers and rebounded at nearly the same rate as Blair without being nearly as much of a liability on defense. Randolph simply had an insane series. If their was one criticism you could levy at Pop was that Duncan should have guarded Randolph in the 2nd half of games.

    Blair should have played more against OKC simply because he is more agile in finishing on pick and rolls. But against UTAH you must be joking. late in games they were playing 3 player over 6'10. He definitely couldn't guard Millsap let alone Jefferson. Favors in a legit 7'0 and is athletic as well he would have hurt the team by being on the floor.

    Last year Stephen Jackson didn't play nearly as much in the Clippers series than he did in the OKC series. Pop's reasoning was match ups. They played Griffin, Martin and or Evans. Other than Blake their wasn't really someone he could really guard late in games as a small ball 4.

    Blair may have been a decent match up against Blake in the post but he tends to gamble of steals. Bonner was a much better choice, Bonner is actually one of the better post defenders in the league and can space the floor much better than Blair.

    Raise your hand if your a HOF coach or someone second guessing his decision making on a message board.

  20. #70
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    It's ironic Avery Johnson did the same thing against the Warriors and got killed for it. When you are the team that wins more games you don't adjust to the other team. It's the other team that should worry about adjusting to you. It sends a ridiculous message to your players. We're the better team but we're trying to adjust to them.
    Who cares what message its sending?. Thats more of a media mindset, players understand that every team has strengths and weaknesses, if your opponent strength is your weakness then its on you to do something about it not worry about how it looks. You play to win the game.

    Each series, each game is a life of its own. That being said Nelie and the Warriors were stacked through & through. Dirk didn't have the post play he has now and struggled against Jackson and Harrington. Biedren's (I'm positive i misspelled that) could play the 5 and rebound the ball like crazy (when he was actually good) without hurting the team on offense.

    Its like staying on a sinking ship, who cares if you panic as long as you're do every thing you can to stay afloat.

  21. #71
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    The Spurs must limit Bonner's minutes at all costs. I think one of the biggest reasons the offenses has been so ty in the po's was because Pop made Bonner such a big factor in the regular season.

    These guys get used to his floor spacing in the RS, but once the playoffs start that floor spacing is gone because the guy ALWAYS chokes, teams start letting him brick wide open 3s or his release is too slow. That spacing that was there is gone, it totally changes the offense, guys are then trying to figure out how to score.

    Get rid of him or limit his minutes and the Spurs will eventually adapt like they are now.

    Having Bonner is like having a key player get injured every single time the playoffs start.

    Where to begin? 1st someone who plays less than half of a game can't be blamed for every thing that happens in the other 28 minutes he doesn't play. Last season are offense was fine for the 10 games & Bonner was in the rotation. Bonner seldom played in the final 4 games (without double checking I'm sure their was a DNP mixed in) and the Spurs lost all 4.

    Based on your logic Bonner actually had no impact ,what so ever, on the Spurs playoff failure. Bonner played half of his RS minutes in the Playoffs. Pop apparently took your advice, and it didn't work.

    As for him bricking open shots, In post season over the last 2 seasons. Bonner rarely saw open looks. Thats to be expected, games every other night playing one team at least 4 times studying tape and prior familiarity with the team in the RS.

    Had he started he would have received more open looks and I will put money every time on a wide open Bonner. His 42% career 3pt percentage was 8% higher than the league average last year. Green struggled clanking open looks while playing with Parker & Duncan almost exclusively. Its odd you over look him, but go right to Bonner even though he played sporadically with a mesh of different players playing along side of him.

    The Spurs offense was #1 in offensive efficiency and #2 in PPG. The teams offense was a juggernaut with or without Bonner.

  22. #72
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Define substantial, because he played the entire 4th in the Clippers game prior too that. Bonner spot in the rotation has always been fluid. That isn't exactly what my argument was. My argument was essentially that just having him on the roster at Pops disposal as a "5th big" or a 5 1/2 big (with Sjax playing the last 6-8 minutes of tight games as a small ball PF) made each big not named Duncan or Splitter play harder and or more effectively in order to cement their spot in the rotation instead of losing it to Bonner.

  23. #73
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Spurs won 63 in '06-07, 09-10 we won 61 games which Center are you talking about?
    Actually, since you insist on being obtuse because I typed 62 instead of 63, I'll point out that the Spurs won 58 games in '06-07. Now that we've established that anyone can make a mistake, obviously we're tallking about the 2006 playoffs.

    Rasho couldn't defend Marquis Daniels/Stackhouse in their small ball lineup. When Dirk actually played the 4 and when Damp/Diop played center Mohammad was in the game and was a better defender than Rasho.
    Wrong. Dallas didn't run a small ball lineup enough to do that kind of damage, and Nazr and Rasho were both out of the rotation before the Mavericks series even started.

    The only change Dallas made to the way they always played was to replace Adrian Griffin with Devin Harris after game 1 since he was finally healthy. Stackhouse, Daniels, Howard, and Harris were all getting past their man and going into the paint all series long, where they were challenged by either Michael Finley or Robert Horry alongside Duncan, (or NOT challenged if you'd like). It's why Duncan and Horry were in perpeutal foul trouble during the entire series.

    Nazr was the starting center at the end of the year because Rasho had gotten injured. He was the starting center up until he hit a three pointer at the end of game 1 against Sacramento, and then his minutes diminished. By game 4, he'd lost his starting job to Rasho. By game 5, Horry was the starter. Game 1 against Dallas, Nazr and Rasho totalled 10 minutes of time combined. 15 in game 2 since nobody but Duncan showed up. Game 3, Rasho was DNP, Nazr got garbage time and Fabricio suddenly started getting minutes. There's not really any way to justify putting in a guy who had played fewer minutes than Beno Udrih beginning in game 3 of the conference semifinals, nor is there justification for using the same gadget lineups against Erick Dampier and Dirk Nowitzki as you used against Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells.

    Here's the kicker: In game 7 against the Mavs, Horry only played 10 minutes. Michael Finley was the power forward for the Spurs, and he logged 47 minutes. Dampier and Diop totaled 35 minutes. That's 14 minutes max of Mavericks smallball, yet the Spurs played 52 minutes of it.

    The Spurs' inability to defend at the rim and keep Duncan out of foul trouble was absolutely and without-a-doubt, the difference in the series.

    Blair couldn't have that kind of impact on a playoff series if he brought a weapon to the game.

  24. #74
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Blair didn't match-up well against the two trees known as Gasol & Randolph. He even had trouble defending the likes of Darrell Arthur. McDyess was a better option even at 36 he was still very athletic and mobile. He also could consistently hit jumpers and rebounded at nearly the same rate as Blair without being nearly as much of a liability on defense. Randolph simply had an insane series. If their was one criticism you could levy at Pop was that Duncan should have guarded Randolph in the 2nd half of games.
    Actually, if THERE WERE one criticism you could LEVEL (yeah sorry that's just nitpicking ) at Pop would be that Splitter should have been fully established in the rotation by that time. Another big criticism is that you don't just decide that one of your players "doesn't match up" and then stop playing him, particularly against a weaker opponent. One would think someone would have learned that lesson from 2006, though many of us know the "doesn't match up" argument is justification by Popsuckers well after the fact. That fallacy is only matched by the 'Arthur was tearing up Blair' line.

    Blair should have played more against OKC simply because he is more agile in finishing on pick and rolls. But against UTAH you must be joking. late in games they were playing 3 player over 6'10. He definitely couldn't guard Millsap let alone Jefferson. Favors in a legit 7'0 and is athletic as well he would have hurt the team by being on the floor.

    Last year Stephen Jackson didn't play nearly as much in the Clippers series than he did in the OKC series. Pop's reasoning was match ups. They played Griffin, Martin and or Evans. Other than Blake their wasn't really someone he could really guard late in games as a small ball 4.

    Blair may have been a decent match up against Blake in the post but he tends to gamble of steals. Bonner was a much better choice, Bonner is actually one of the better post defenders in the league and can space the floor much better than Blair.

    Raise your hand if your a HOF coach or someone second guessing his decision making on a message board.
    The above must be directed toward someone else, as I'm already on record saying that Blair's playing time wasn't the difference in anything that happened in the playoffs the last two years. I do love that you spent several paragraphs second-guessing the coach on a message board, and then you call yourself out at the end. Well done.

  25. #75
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Actually, since you insist on being obtuse because I typed 62 instead of 63, I'll point out that the Spurs won 58 games in '06-07. Now that we've established that anyone can make a mistake, obviously we're tallking about the 2006 playoffs.


    Wrong. Dallas didn't run a small ball lineup enough to do that kind of damage, and Nazr and Rasho were both out of the rotation before the Mavericks series even started.

    The only change Dallas made to the way they always played was to replace Adrian Griffin with Devin Harris after game 1 since he was finally healthy. Stackhouse, Daniels, Howard, and Harris were all getting past their man and going into the paint all series long, where they were challenged by either Michael Finley or Robert Horry alongside Duncan, (or NOT challenged if you'd like). It's why Duncan and Horry were in perpeutal foul trouble during the entire series.

    Nazr was the starting center at the end of the year because Rasho had gotten injured. He was the starting center up until he hit a three pointer at the end of game 1 against Sacramento, and then his minutes diminished. By game 4, he'd lost his starting job to Rasho. By game 5, Horry was the starter. Game 1 against Dallas, Nazr and Rasho totalled 10 minutes of time combined. 15 in game 2 since nobody but Duncan showed up. Game 3, Rasho was DNP, Nazr got garbage time and Fabricio suddenly started getting minutes. There's not really any way to justify putting in a guy who had played fewer minutes than Beno Udrih beginning in game 3 of the conference semifinals, nor is there justification for using the same gadget lineups against Erick Dampier and Dirk Nowitzki as you used against Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells.

    Here's the kicker: In game 7 against the Mavs, Horry only played 10 minutes. Michael Finley was the power forward for the Spurs, and he logged 47 minutes. Dampier and Diop totaled 35 minutes. That's 14 minutes max of Mavericks smallball, yet the Spurs played 52 minutes of it.

    The Spurs' inability to defend at the rim and keep Duncan out of foul trouble was absolutely and without-a-doubt, the difference in the series.

    Blair couldn't have that kind of impact on a playoff series if he brought a weapon to the game.
    My mistake 05-06 we won 63 and lost to Dallas.

    We apparently disagree on roster decisions. Horry was more mobile defending P&Rs granted he never had much of an impact offensive other than floor spacing. Duncan had a monster series in, part because Nazr & Rasho weren't in the other post. Dallas could of easily send another big to double Tim because they were only mediocre mid range shooters, compared to Horry who could hit 3's.

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