Lakers: Kobe's Defense...

[TimmehC]

Tbh, Kobe never was a great defender ... or even a very good one. Back in his prime, he never defended Manu or TP (well, he tried to defend TP once and that ended comically bad for him). Kobe spent his time "guarding" Bruce Bowen. And despite having room to roam off of Bowen, he never really was much of a pest. Truly great defenders like Scottie Pippen (or, , even someone like Dirk) could "guard" Bowen and then wreak havoc elsewhere. Kobe, on the other hand, did little away from the ball even though he paid such little attention to Bowen that Bowen had some of his best offensive games of his career against him.

I'd classify Kobe as "good" defensively in his prime just because he was so athletic that he could impact the game via steals and blocks. But he was never a lockdown defender and probably doesn't deserve any of his All-Defense honors, tbh.

[Koolaid_Man]

Tbh, Kobe never was a great defender ... or even a very good one. Back in his prime, he never defended Manu or TP (well, he tried to defend TP once and that ended comically bad for him). Kobe spent his time "guarding" Bruce Bowen. And despite having room to roam off of Bowen, he never really was much of a pest. Truly great defenders like Scottie Pippen (or, , even someone like Dirk) could "guard" Bowen and then wreak havoc elsewhere. Kobe, on the other hand, did little away from the ball even though he paid such little attention to Bowen that Bowen had some of his best offensive games of his career against him.

I'd classify Kobe as "good" defensively in his prime just because he was so athletic that he could impact the game via steals and blocks. But he was never a lockdown defender and probably doesn't deserve any of his All-Defense honors, tbh.

^ please.....Kobe typically didn't defend players like Bowen because he didn't respect their offensive game...I used to do that all the time in my prime....I'm not gonna spend the energy to guard your ass if I feel the you throw up is luck....

but when he wanted to..Kobe was lights out...same with MJ....and one fact remains...Kobe is the only player in NBA history that I know of that blocked Timmy's 3 times in the same dam game... --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrfElBT_BOY


Here's a good DVD of Kobe's defense take notes sons.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps

[Killakobe81]

Tbh, Kobe never was a great defender ... or even a very good one. Back in his prime, he never defended Manu or TP (well, he tried to defend TP once and that ended comically bad for him). Kobe spent his time "guarding" Bruce Bowen. And despite having room to roam off of Bowen, he never really was much of a pest. Truly great defenders like Scottie Pippen (or, , even someone like Dirk) could "guard" Bowen and then wreak havoc elsewhere. Kobe, on the other hand, did little away from the ball even though he paid such little attention to Bowen that Bowen had some of his best offensive games of his career against him.

I'd classify Kobe as "good" defensively in his prime just because he was so athletic that he could impact the game via steals and blocks. But he was never a lockdown defender and probably doesn't deserve any of his All-Defense honors, tbh.

Disagree to an extent ... At one point Kobe was one of the better perimeter defenders ... but I do agree he was never a Bowen lock down guy (few are) even at his best ...because he had plenty of other responsibilities. And though I do think they are better defenders than Kobe ... MJ and Lebron arent lock down guys either for the record imho.
Lock down defenders are like shutdown corners. ...people use the term far to loosely and to me (in the recent NBA) young artest, Tony allen, a young Battier, Bowen are some of the very few who deserve that label. (avery Bradley and Shumpert are promising). Being a lockdown defender (like Cooper or Bowen) requires so much energy and effort not many can commit, to it and carry a team offensively. Some other guys have shown flashes of lockdown ability like Kobe, Lebron, Iggy but becaue they have so many other responsibilites they never sustain it. Furthermore, outside of Lebron most of the uber stars never guard the opposing best player ... MJ had Pippen handle it as well so not sure what Timvp point is here ...

Oh and Rodman was a lockdown defender before he got older and rebound obsessed ... back in his Pistons days he was one of the best I had ever seen ...a true lockdown defender. But post Detroit very overrated on defense but lived off his rep as well.

[Koolaid_Man]

good point timvp, Kobe let Bruce Bowen outscore him in a playoff game in his prime. Not much more needs to be said. Jordan would never have allowed this to happen

Bruce Bowen was Kobe's pinata...sometimes you gotta take a break from beating tha living outta the ing pinata

in that ass productions presents --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvh9kEwekY8 or more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NgoMC2TUgw or try this face plant --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x55VxeRs0Q

[Killakobe81]

Jordan's not that overrated on D'. The only time he's overrated on D' is whe people say he was the best defender in the league. That's obviously a joke, but to say he was the best defensive SG in the league I don't think is a big stretch for many of the seasons he played prior to the tail end of his run with the Bulls. And obviously, he wasn't a good defender on the Wizards since he was 40. But I don't think anyone claims he was.

Kobe's been mediocre on D' since 28 or 29 years old. What kills me about it is that it's a complete lack of effort. It's like he saves all his energy for offense. That's why I don't buy that junk about "oh he's capable of good D'". No he isn't, not for extended periods of time. He can't do both offense and defense at once. It's either one, the other, or medium on both. He usually just picks offense.

I'd have less of a problem with it if his D' wasn't still be heralded as great. All defensive 1st team awards still? . . .what a joke.

This and I dont think he was the best SG defender either at least not consistently so.

[Medvedenko]

good point timvp, Kobe let Bruce Bowen outscore him in a playoff game in his prime. Not much more needs to be said. Jordan would never have allowed this to happen

Kool already said it, but the amount of times the Lakers and Kobe raped Bowen and the spurs it's legendary. Bringing up a scrub's one hero game doesn't change anything. Oh, and MJ played the same damn role, guarding the weaker player while Pip and Rodman took the major defensive assignments. Oh, I am old enough to actually have watched MJ in his day.

[Koolaid_Man]

Kool already said it, but the amount of times the Lakers and Kobe raped Bowen and the spurs it's legendary. Bringing up a scrub's one hero game doesn't change anything. Oh, and MJ played the same damn role, guarding the weaker player while Pip and Rodman took the major defensive assignments. Oh, I am old enough to actually have watched MJ in his day.

these s and mom jean wearing gots on this site are ing insane....

MJ's was a phantom defender of great players....he tried to clown on the scrubs basically over compensating....he could easily be posted up...Magic posted his ass on the regular...Go back and look at games 1 and 2 of the 1991 finals. Magic was roasting his ass almost fouled him out and then Phil put Pip on Magic to hide and protect MJ...and they slide MJ onto Worthy who had ankle injury...made it easy for MJ...

Then MJ started stealing Ron Harpers defensive shine because the white boys in the media cut for him at the time. Ron Harper was the one guarding the opposing teams best player if it wasn't Pip...People posted MJ up on the regular and MJ kept making first team all -defense but Ron Harper did not. It was foul then and it still stands today...these clowns can get the on with that revisionist NBA history

[JamStone]

Jam, the Lakers being under .500 makes them more relevant than ever and you know it. The entire seasons storyline has been watching the Lakers fail. Everyone is enjoying it, except for Lakerfans. Even Kobefan doesn't mind because Kobe is scoring 30ppg at decent efficiency so they can say at least it's not Kobe's fault. For a team with so much damn talent, them being 5 games below .500 is a big deal.

It's not just mid, who may have an obsession with the Lakers, but look at the general board on RealGM and half the topics are about Kobe or the Lakers. Fans of basketball are closely watching the Lakeshow drama, it's as good of a storyline as it gets

I don't think there's anything wrong with laughing at the Lakers and their demise this season. And when I talked about insecurity, I wasn't suggesting all Laker haters are insecure. I was directing that to mid and other Laker haters that obsess over the Lakers. It's one thing to laugh at the Lakers and spend say 20% of your posting on ST on that. I initially directed my questioning to mid because it seemed to me that almost all of his posts and threads are about the Lakers. As I said, whether that's accurate or not, I don't know. Just seemed that way. I think there's a difference. Laughing at the Lakers but still talking about other versus being a Spurs fan and devoting next to all your posting to the Lakers... a bit carried away in my opinion. I just asking him why. Why devote that amount of his posting to the team he supposedly hates?

I agree that it's a story. It's the Lakers. And they were projected to be one of the few teams to legitimately contend this year. And it's been a disaster. I just don't think it's "the" story of the season. Maybe I'm wrong. I think so far the Knicks and the Clippers have been bigger stories. At some point, everyone will have to come to grips with the Lakers being a mediocre at best under .500 team, both Laker fans and Laker haters alike. Then maybe they won't be so noteworthy.

[timvp]

So in your expert opinion why do you think he was voted to so many first team all defense noms?

1. Voters are lazy. They go with the big names most of the time unless there is an undeniable defensive talent. Plus, scoring a lot helped ... as backwards as that sounds. It's just like how being a great hitter helps your chances of winning a Gold Glove. Same ish.

2. He played a ton of minutes. Those minutes were usually televised.

3. Kobe was a pretty good defender. Don't get me wrong, back in the Phil Jackson days, Kobe wasn't allowed just to be a non-en y on defense. He was decidedly above average with some great games sprinkled in.

Also, the gameplan was to have Kobe guard Bowen back in the day to conserve energy and play off the ball D. It's called Strategy and it worked the majority of the time, if my history is correct.

Well, yeah, but my point is that his off the ball D wasn't really that good either. He was never a standout help defender or a standout individual defender. A lot better than a guy like Iverson (who also got All-Defense honors) but just not close to elite, IMO.

[Cry Havoc]

[LittleCriminal]

IMO Kobe has never been a clutch player... I've been saying this for years. Guy is Way Overrated...This was written in 2011.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time


Here's an article written in 2012.
This stupid ass Bleacher Report says Kobe Is 2nd in the Top 10 Clutch Athletes In Sports. lol... But Just Look at the reason why they give it to him.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...sports/page/11

"Even though statistics may sometimes disprove his crunch-time ability, Kobe has proven time and time again that he is the best option on the court when the game is on the line. If you don't believe that, then take a look at the five championship rings he has on his fingers." BY SAMMY SUCU
(SENIOR ANALYST)


lol So Kobe is Clutch cuz he has rings?? ing stupid ass people. Kobe Lovers are so blind when it comes to actual stats.

[Kidd K]

This and I dont think he was the best SG defender either at least not consistently so.

Let's not forget that despite his somewhat shorter-than-should-have-been career, he's second all time in total steals for guards, and 1st in career BPG for guards. Not exactly stats.

He really was a great defender. I'll list out his league ranks in defensive win shares and defensive ratings. btw, he was the top SG in these ranks every year besides his rookie year and 2nd year.

Year: D. Win Shares rank, Defensive rating rank.

1998: 6th, 18th
1997: 12th, just outside of top 20
1996: 13th, just off top 20
1995: 2nd, 9th
1993: 6th, 14th
1992: 5th, 5th
1991: 5th, 7th
1990: 11th, just off top 20
1989: 5th, 18th
1988: 3rd, 6th
1987: 4th, just barely off top 20
1986: was hurt and out most of the year
1985: 20th, didn't make top 20


So entire career, failed to be in the top 6 of ALL positions in Defensive win shares. . .only 5 times. Once as a rook, once because he missed a season, and twice when he was in his mid 30s. Still never failed to make the top 20 despite SGs being a rarity on that list.

His defenese was not overrated, and it actually was consistently good.


If you were curious, these are Kobe's league ranks, using the same list. I have excluded every year he didn't make top 20 on either list:

2000: 10th, 14th
2003: 20th, didn't make top 20
2008: 20th, didn't make top 20
2009: 19th, didn't make top 20
2010: 18th, didn't make top 20

Kobe has been among the league leaders in offensive win shares and stuff though since 2001.

[Manny Pacquiao]

Tbh, Kobe never was a great defender ... or even a very good one. Back in his prime, he never defended Manu or TP (well, he tried to defend TP once and that ended comically bad for him). Kobe spent his time "guarding" Bruce Bowen. And despite having room to roam off of Bowen, he never really was much of a pest. Truly great defenders like Scottie Pippen (or, , even someone like Dirk) could "guard" Bowen and then wreak havoc elsewhere. Kobe, on the other hand, did little away from the ball even though he paid such little attention to Bowen that Bowen had some of his best offensive games of his career against him.

I'd classify Kobe as "good" defensively in his prime just because he was so athletic that he could impact the game via steals and blocks. But he was never a lockdown defender and probably doesn't deserve any of his All-Defense honors, tbh.

LMAO )))

Can't STOP LAUGHING I'm so sorry

BTW those player are not FAMOUS and not Great as Kobe

Those fool are just a bunch of loser that can't even score

Sorry I "FORGOT" to "MENTION" that Kobe can only BLOCK and Guard a Rookie Player not an Allstar, Bigger Taller, A little Younger and also Longer Arms Player against Kobe Bryant who has Smaller Arms and much OLDER.

Btw those rookie player were name as "Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Deron Williams, Yao Ming, Kevin Garnett and also your FAVORITE PLAYER a ROOKIE also and calling himself as SMART GUY because He's OLD Now not a YOUNG ONE "OLD OLD OLD = SMART LMAO got block by some unknown specie who KNOWN as not Great DEFENDER who bite on the fake but still manage to BLOCK the so CALLED GOAT LMAO, That thing is easy after you bite on the pump fake especially if your opponent is a small name as JORDAN LMAO.

SORRY LMAO ))))))))) Kobe Bryant is not a good defender against FAMOUS PLAYER cause he can only GUARD a NOT FAMOUS PLAYER LMAOOOOOOOOOO
))))))))))))

furthermore Kobe is good at stealing only when the opponent is trying to pass not stealing the opponent while dribbling LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

last one I forgot to mention that Kobe is not good blocker cause he can only BLOCK from behind not in the FRONT of HIS OPPONENT LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hyper last LMAOOOOOOOO

I've never seen Kobe Bryant's LOCK DOWN DEFENSE against much younger and got more athleticism than him LMAOOOOOOOOO only Jordan can do LOCK DOWN DEFENSE LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ))))))))) btw the name of those people are Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Jason Terry I guess this 3 people doesn't know how to dribble seems legit

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Cry Havoc]

LMAO )))

Can't STOP LAUGHING I'm so sorry

BTW those player are not FAMOUS and not Great as Kobe

Those fool are just a bunch of loser that can't even score

Sorry I "FORGOT" to "MENTION" that Kobe can only BLOCK and Guard a Rookie Player not an Allstar, Bigger Taller, A little Younger and also Longer Arms Player against Kobe Bryant who has Smaller Arms and much OLDER.

Btw those rookie player were name as "Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Deron Williams, Yao Ming, Kevin Garnett and also your FAVORITE PLAYER a ROOKIE also and calling himself as SMART GUY because He's OLD Now not a YOUNG ONE "OLD OLD OLD = SMART LMAO got block by some unknown specie who KNOWN as not Great DEFENDER who bite on the fake but still manage to BLOCK the so CALLED GOAT LMAO, That thing is easy after you bite on the pump fake especially if your opponent is a small name as JORDAN LMAO.

SORRY LMAO ))))))))) Kobe Bryant is not a good defender against FAMOUS PLAYER cause he can only GUARD a NOT FAMOUS PLAYER LMAOOOOOOOOOO
))))))))))))

furthermore Kobe is good at stealing only when the opponent is trying to pass not stealing the opponent while dribbling LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

last one I forgot to mention that Kobe is not good blocker cause he can only BLOCK from behind not in the FRONT of HIS OPPONENT LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hyper last LMAOOOOOOOO

I've never seen Kobe Bryant's LOCK DOWN DEFENSE against much younger and got more athleticism than him LMAOOOOOOOOO only Jordan can do LOCK DOWN DEFENSE LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ))))))))) btw the name of those people are Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Jason Terry I guess this 3 people doesn't know how to dribble seems legit

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Killakobe81]

Let's not forget that despite his somewhat shorter-than-should-have-been career, he's second all time in total steals for guards, and 1st in career BPG for guards. Not exactly stats.

He really was a great defender. I'll list out his league ranks in defensive win shares and defensive ratings. btw, he was the top SG in these ranks every year besides his rookie year and 2nd year.

Year: D. Win Shares rank, Defensive rating rank.

1998: 6th, 18th
1997: 12th, just outside of top 20
1996: 13th, just off top 20
1995: 2nd, 9th
1993: 6th, 14th
1992: 5th, 5th
1991: 5th, 7th
1990: 11th, just off top 20
1989: 5th, 18th
1988: 3rd, 6th
1987: 4th, just barely off top 20
1986: was hurt and out most of the year
1985: 20th, didn't make top 20


So entire career, failed to be in the top 6 of ALL positions in Defensive win shares. . .only 5 times. Once as a rook, once because he missed a season, and twice when he was in his mid 30s. Still never failed to make the top 20 despite SGs being a rarity on that list.

His defenese was not overrated, and it actually was consistently good.


If you were curious, these are Kobe's league ranks, using the same list. I have excluded every year he didn't make top 20 on either list:

2000: 10th, 14th
2003: 20th, didn't make top 20
2008: 20th, didn't make top 2
2009: 19th, didn't make top 20
2010: 18th, didn't make top 20

Kobe has been among the league leaders in offensive win shares and stuff though since 2001.

P
A couple of things ... SG outside of drexler and miller has Been a mediocre position ...during Both their careers. In Mjs prime they actually started great shooters like Ainge and Hornacek ... Mj's defensive numbers are skewed because he murdered people on the offensive end. I actually saw the man play don't need to look at stats ...if an opposing SG averaged 15 but was guarding MJ no way he was he hitting his average MJ put that much pressure on his man and good chance that player would be in foul trouble. Never said MJ was not a very good defender ..but I thunk his team defense was amazing, especially his ability to block centers from behind and his ability to play passing lanes 1 on 1 he was good but overrated by most.

[Kidd K]

P
A couple of things ... SG outside of drexler and miller has Been a mediocre position ...during Both their careers. In Mjs prime they actually started great shooters like Ainge and Hornacek ... Mj's defensive numbers are skewed because he murdered people on the offensive end. I actually saw the man play don't need to look at stats ...if an opposing SG averaged 15 but was guarding MJ no way he was he hitting his average MJ put that much pressure on his man and good chance that player would be in foul trouble. Never said MJ was not a very good defender ..but I thunk his team defense was amazing, especially his ability to block centers from behind and his ability to play passing lanes 1 on 1 he was good but overrated by most.

lol, and Kobe doesn't put any pressure on his man offensively? Are you saying MJ was so much better than Kobe on offense that he made anyone who was defending him so exhausted that their offense suffered despite barely any effort by MJ?

I'm not sure whether to take that as an insult to MJ or a compliment. Because you seem to be exchanging MJ's defensive dominance over Kobe for offensive, which is weird because Kobe's offense is practically his only ticket to being compared to MJ.

That silliness aside, foul trouble doesn't stop you from playing well on the offensive end, it makes your defense worse. You also obviously do need to look at stats if you think he's "overrated" on defense and "was never a good defender" based on what you can recall from 15+ years ago.

And at this point, based on how much you're bashing MJ's defense despite evidence, it's safe to say MJ's defense is underrated, not overrated. He was way better than you're giving him credit. You don't constantly sit among league leaders in defensive stats your whole career by being a mediocre defender. It doesn't matter how much rationalization you throw at it about his offense wearing people down so they didn't score as well, you're severely underrating him.

[Clipper Nation]

LMAO )))

Can't STOP LAUGHING I'm so sorry

BTW those player are not FAMOUS and not Great as Kobe

Those fool are just a bunch of loser that can't even score

Sorry I "FORGOT" to "MENTION" that Kobe can only BLOCK and Guard a Rookie Player not an Allstar, Bigger Taller, A little Younger and also Longer Arms Player against Kobe Bryant who has Smaller Arms and much OLDER.

Btw those rookie player were name as "Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Deron Williams, Yao Ming, Kevin Garnett and also your FAVORITE PLAYER a ROOKIE also and calling himself as SMART GUY because He's OLD Now not a YOUNG ONE "OLD OLD OLD = SMART LMAO got block by some unknown specie who KNOWN as not Great DEFENDER who bite on the fake but still manage to BLOCK the so CALLED GOAT LMAO, That thing is easy after you bite on the pump fake especially if your opponent is a small name as JORDAN LMAO.

SORRY LMAO ))))))))) Kobe Bryant is not a good defender against FAMOUS PLAYER cause he can only GUARD a NOT FAMOUS PLAYER LMAOOOOOOOOOO
))))))))))))

furthermore Kobe is good at stealing only when the opponent is trying to pass not stealing the opponent while dribbling LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

last one I forgot to mention that Kobe is not good blocker cause he can only BLOCK from behind not in the FRONT of HIS OPPONENT LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hyper last LMAOOOOOOOO

I've never seen Kobe Bryant's LOCK DOWN DEFENSE against much younger and got more athleticism than him LMAOOOOOOOOO only Jordan can do LOCK DOWN DEFENSE LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ))))))))) btw the name of those people are Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Jason Terry I guess this 3 people doesn't know how to dribble seems legit

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[ambchang]

Drexler, Miller, Dumars, Richmond, Rolando Blackman are all very good SGs. Hornacek and Ainge were both fine starting SG, just because both are white and one of them is called Horny doesn't mean they are bad, they are both good outside shooters and can make great decisions with the ball. Hornacek can also pass the ball very well.

Compared to starting shooting guards like those of today, Hornacek and Ainge would be in the top 10 to 15 starting shooting guards.

[Killakobe81]

lol, and Kobe doesn't put any pressure on his man offensively? Are you saying MJ was so much better than Kobe on offense that he made anyone who was defending him so exhausted that their offense suffered despite barely any effort by MJ?

I'm not sure whether to take that as an insult to MJ or a compliment. Because you seem to be exchanging MJ's defensive dominance over Kobe for offensive, which is weird because Kobe's offense is practically his only ticket to being compared to MJ.

That silliness aside, foul trouble doesn't stop you from playing well on the offensive end, it makes your defense worse. You also obviously do need to look at stats if you think he's "overrated" on defense and "was never a good defender" based on what you can recall from 15+ years ago.

And at this point, based on how much you're bashing MJ's defense despite evidence, it's safe to say MJ's defense is underrated, not overrated. He was way better than you're giving him credit. You don't constantly sit among league leaders in defensive stats your whole career by being a mediocre defender. It doesn't matter how much rationalization you throw at it about his offense wearing people down so they didn't score as well, you're severely underrating him.

i

A few more things: I freely admit MJ is greater than Kobe. Please feel free to find a post on this site or LG WHERE I HAVE said MJ and Kobe are even equals. The only comparison you will find is me saying they are not as far as some haters would argue. Saying someone is overrated does not equal bashing. For example, Pistons Rodman was one of the best defenders I had ever seen ...I modeled my defense off of him and Cooper and GP ...Bulls era Rodman was a all-time rebounder but overrated flop arist as a Bull. Still very good probably even top 5 but overrated imo. Jordan was better than Kobe at most everything ...you barking up the wrong tree here.

[TDMVPDPOY]

defense? he couldnt even block childs 2 punches

[DMC]

Shrugs. Even if I hated the Lakers, by now, I'd just be at a point of disregarding them and ignoring them. They simply don't deserve much attention, probably don't deserve any.

To each his own.

I agree with this to a point. The threads are about 50/50 bashing vs suggesting ways to help the Lakers. Everyone here knows the Lakers could be the best team in the league if one or two things were just a bit different. It's which things to change that drives a lot of the conversation. I doubt anyone here felt Mike D was the coach LA needed, but then neither was Mike Brown. When a team has that much talent and sucks that bad, there's more to it than just the coaching. This little prime time debacle makes for great popcorn eating fun, and many of us want nothing more than to see Kobe Bryant leave the NBA in a similar fashion as AI. He's been coddled by the media, surrounded by money and talent and every other NBA story was about him in some form. He's one of the most unlikeable sports personalities ever. It's fitting then to go on and on about how bad he is.

[Kidd K]

i

A few more things: I freely admit MJ is greater than Kobe. Please feel free to find a post on this site or LG WHERE I HAVE said MJ and Kobe are even equals. The only comparison you will find is me saying they are not as far as some haters would argue. Saying someone is overrated does not equal bashing. For example, Pistons Rodman was one of the best defenders I had ever seen ...I modeled my defense off of him and Cooper and GP ...Bulls era Rodman was a all-time rebounder but overrated flop arist as a Bull. Still very good probably even top 5 but overrated imo. Jordan was better than Kobe at most everything ...you barking up the wrong tree here.

I didn't say you did say that. We're comparing the two players. If offensive stress improves their defense somehow, then every great offensive player should have decent defensive stats. Yet in many cases, we see one-dimensional players who only impact the game significantly on the offensive end, and almost not at all on defense. I just don't see that logic applying to many other situations. On a game to game basis? Okay, sometimes. Over the course of a season? Doesn't really pop up.

I just have an issue with that logic, I don't think you're hating on MJ or anything. But if people are really calling him an overrated defender, he would be underrated since he was actually pretty excellent at defense. Better on offense? Of course. But statistically, his defense speaks for itself. The only overratedness in regards to MJ's defense are when clowns say he was the best defensive player in the league. Obviously that's bs. But saying he was the best defensive SG of his era actually isn't much of a stretch imo. The stats back it up. It isn't just an opinion.

I agree about Rodman though, he was definitely overrated on defense after leaving Detroit. I frequently saw him not even contest shots just so he'd have that extra second to get in better position for the potential rebound. He did that countless times.

[Killakobe81]

I didn't say you did say that. We're comparing the two players. If offensive stress improves their defense somehow, then every great offensive player should have decent defensive stats. Yet in many cases, we see one-dimensional players who only impact the game significantly on the offensive end, and almost not at all on defense. I just don't see that logic applying to many other situations. On a game to game basis? Okay, sometimes. Over the course of a season? Doesn't really pop up.

I just have an issue with that logic, I don't think you're hating on MJ or anything. But if people are really calling him an overrated defender, he would be underrated since he was actually pretty excellent at defense. Better on offense? Of course. But statistically, his defense speaks for itself. The only overratedness in regards to MJ's defense are when clowns say he was the best defensive player in the league. Obviously that's bs. But saying he was the best defensive SG of his era actually isn't much of a stretch imo. The stats back it up. It isn't just an opinion.

I agree about Rodman though, he was definitely overrated on defense after leaving Detroit. I frequently saw him not even contest shots just so he'd have that extra second to get in better position for the potential rebound. He did that countless times.

But no need to compare Kobe and MJ often times the copy has no chance at besting the original ... and i already established MJ is my GOAT over Kareem and Magic. Maybe I should of used somewhat overrated because I did not mean to imply that his defense was no good or that he was not a beast on that end when focused. Also I am not saying that ALL players who score impact the man guarding them ... I said Jordan specifically applied so much pressure that many of the men whom he defended could not get in to much of a groove and that his devastation on offense helped him on defense ... you dont think that is at all plausible?

A couple questions & comments:

1. did you see MJ play in his prime? Not just youtube or come fly with me? But did you watch Jordan? MJ was just so far ahead of his time Amb (or someone else) pointed to the other quality SG of MJ's era: Ro blackmon, Richmond, Hornacek, dumars, Scott Ainge, Reggie ... name me one of those guys that were remotely close to MJ as an athlete? MJ was an almost impossible cover for SG because MJ had Dr.J athleticism, Niques explosion and PG handles. Just trying to stay in front of MJ would require an incredible amount of energy ... i dont see how anyone who has played the game argue that guarding a player as great as MJ could of had an impact on the guys he played against. Can I say that it's a indiputable fact? No. But listening to Reggie, dumars etc. talk about dealing with MJ and coupled with the games i saw him play I feel confident that my observation has merit.

2. How do you NOT score less if you are on the bench in foul trouble? I dont see how that point is contested ... only way to stop MJ was to foul him and if you did you were taking an early seat.

3. How do you compare the GOAT to one-dimensional great offensive players? Again MJ would of been great in any era but part of what made him special he played above the rim (in his prime) in an era when many of his SG peers were ground based shooters/scorers and as you correctly stated more one-dimensional, and some challenged athletically. Sure those guys were great and are better than most of the SG of today but compared to MJ they were playing pong while MJ was plating SEGA (hey MJ is old).

4. Glad we agree on rodman ... and the thing was he was great at rebounding in chicago which helped their defense but in reality if locked in Bulls could of really had the 3 of the best defenders of all-time on one squad ... but MJ was picking his spots on D Pippen was in his prime and Rodman perferred to pad his rebound numbers and play to the crowd. Scary thing as good as they were they could of been even greater.

And not trying to battle you here you made some great points and i should of chose my words more wisely. I think Mj was a great defender and slightly overrated on that end. An you maybe right maybe im giving him too much credit on offense, but I dont think so. I think the 5 most difficult players i have seen to defend 1 on1 are: 1. Kareem 2. MJ 3. Shaq (prime) 4. Lebron 5. Hakeem (prime)

[Kidd K]

But no need to compare Kobe and MJ often times the copy has no chance at besting the original ... and i already established MJ is my GOAT over Kareem and Magic. Maybe I should of used somewhat overrated because I did not mean to imply that his defense was no good or that he was not a beast on that end when focused. Also I am not saying that ALL players who score impact the man guarding them ... I said Jordan specifically applied so much pressure that many of the men whom he defended could not get in to much of a groove and that his devastation on offense helped him on defense ... you dont think that is at all plausible?

A couple questions & comments:

1. did you see MJ play in his prime? Not just youtube or come fly with me? But did you watch Jordan? MJ was just so far ahead of his time Amb (or someone else) pointed to the other quality SG of MJ's era: Ro blackmon, Richmond, Hornacek, dumars, Scott Ainge, Reggie ... name me one of those guys that were remotely close to MJ as an athlete? MJ was an almost impossible cover for SG because MJ had Dr.J athleticism, Niques explosion and PG handles. Just trying to stay in front of MJ would require an incredible amount of energy ... i dont see how anyone who has played the game argue that guarding a player as great as MJ could of had an impact on the guys he played against. Can I say that it's a indiputable fact? No. But listening to Reggie, dumars etc. talk about dealing with MJ and coupled with the games i saw him play I feel confident that my observation has merit.

2. How do you NOT score less if you are on the bench in foul trouble? I dont see how that point is contested ... only way to stop MJ was to foul him and if you did you were taking an early seat.

3. How do you compare the GOAT to one-dimensional great offensive players? Again MJ would of been great in any era but part of what made him special he played above the rim (in his prime) in an era when many of his SG peers were ground based shooters/scorers and as you correctly stated more one-dimensional, and some challenged athletically. Sure those guys were great and are better than most of the SG of today but compared to MJ they were playing pong while MJ was plating SEGA (hey MJ is old).

4. Glad we agree on rodman ... and the thing was he was great at rebounding in chicago which helped their defense but in reality if locked in Bulls could of really had the 3 of the best defenders of all-time on one squad ... but MJ was picking his spots on D Pippen was in his prime and Rodman perferred to pad his rebound numbers and play to the crowd. Scary thing as good as they were they could of been even greater.

And not trying to battle you here you made some great points and i should of chose my words more wisely. I think Mj was a great defender and slightly overrated on that end. An you maybe right maybe im giving him too much credit on offense, but I dont think so. I think the 5 most difficult players i have seen to defend 1 on1 are: 1. Kareem 2. MJ 3. Shaq (prime) 4. Lebron 5. Hakeem (prime)

I see what you're trying to say, but I just don't think it effected it as much as you think. Foul trouble doesn't really effect your offense. Being tired chasing around MJ can effect their offense, sure. But like I said, that's the case for all good offensive players. If it really made such a difference, players like Amar'e, Nash, etc should be showing much better defensive impact. . .but they don't. They're still terrible on D'.

1: Yes I did. I grew up in Chicago and am almost 28 now, so I was old enough to appreciate it when it was happening. I saw the entire Bulls championship run starting with the Finals series against the Lakers, then the regular seasons and entire playoffs after that. I don't need to youtube his games to know how good he was.

2: You don't get bonus points in defensive win shares when the opposing team's SG is on the bench. You'd actually get even less chances to increase that stat since you'd be less able to impact the game defensively as less plays would go through the opposing SG in that scnerio. The guys who were fouling him weren't just the opposing SG either. No team with a few brain cells to rub together is going to have their SG use up his fouls on MJ if said SG is important to the team's offense. MJ would usually get hacked by a parade of players, the way teams would bring in scrub bigs to foul Shaq in the early 2000s.

3: Because you were saying his defensive stats were only that good because his offense was so good. If that logic applies to him, it should also to elite offensive players now. . .yet it doesn't. I explain why a little bit earlier. I don't think dudes in the 90's were that bad athletically either, lol. It feels like we're talking about Wilt's era here or something. . .90's athletics were about as good as now bro. The only major thing different now in pro sports is the undetectable PEDs.

4: MJ wasn't picking his spots as much as you think. I don't remember him coasting very much. I have absolutely seen players who play with that kind of mindset. "Okay, when I get the ball, you're mine!". Instead of, "it doesn't matter if I have the ball or not, I'm beating your ass". MJ was the latter. Most SGs aren't known for being "both", that's usually reserved for big men (like Hakeem, Duncan, etc), but MJ had the same mindset. He just couldn't impact the game as often on defense as bigs because you get less chances to. When he got old, his defense did slip some though due to age. He also didn't play much D' at all as a Wizard. But I'm talkin about in his prime and up until pretty much his final 3 seasons.

I would put Hakeem over LeBron for toughest to defend 1 on 1 too. I have seen LeBron get locked down (2007 finals for example by an old Bowen). . .I've never seen Hakeem get locked down. Though I didn't see Hakeem's first 5-6 seasons. I'm not sure I'd put LeBron in the top 5 either, but I'd have to really think about it and assess everyone. I think LeBron is one of the best overall talents ever for sure, but offensively unstoppable? I don't know. Kobe would probably be above him for unstoppable offense, along with a few others. But I guess it's arguable. LeBron is really good after all. Probably even underrated offensively.

Good discussion here though, thanks man.

[irishock]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers...r&dlvrit=53297

Robert Horry rips Kobe's defense