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  1. #1
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    This is from a UNC History professor. Good read.

    The author contends that influential Southerners feared that a federalized militia might well leave their region without adequate means to police the slave community and might provide slaves with an incentive to revolt. One reason, at least, for the Second Amendment was to address those concerns: the states would control their militias most of the time, and they would retain their authority to provide arms for their state militias if Congress failed to provide them with sufficient weapons. "In effect, the Second Amendment supplemented the slavery compromise made at the Cons utional Convention in Philadelphia and obliquely codified in other cons utional provisions." 2 If the pro-slavery motive is as powerful as Bogus contends, it may make Standard Modelers a bit uncomfortable and deprive them of some of the high ground they have sought to occupy. Although Bogus’s thesis will doubtless be: controversial, it is timely and valuable for two reasons: it will stimulate more research on the subject, and it contextualizes the question of origins and motivation by looking at the social order at the time Congress passed the Bill of Rights. Critics of the Standard Model approach will assuredly go along with one assertion of Bogus, which is that the evidence on the origins "of the Second Amendment strongly supports the collective rights position."
    Militia discussions and debates in Congress during the War of Independence, in the postwar Confederation years, during the writing and ratification of the Cons ution, in the First Federal Congress, and into the Jeffersonian period always revolved around issues of militia control and organization— or, to put it in terms used in our present-day literature, involved collective rights (not individual rights) and how they should be implemented in legal and cons utional terms. If people believed passionately in gun ownership as an individual right, they rarely said so. In fact, I put out a request to nearly a thousand early American scholars on the Omohundro Ins ute of Early History and Culture’s NET, asking’ for citations to speeches and writings mentioning specifically the belief that individual gun ownership was— or should be— a protected right in any of the great charters of the period. The responses contained nothing other than the handful of references I already had collected.
    Cornell may well deliver the most devastating blow yet to the Standard Modelers’ view of the Founding era because he successfully challenges them concerning Pennsylvania, the state where one finds the most evidence of claims for gun ownership as an individual right, which was often linked with opposition to ever accepting the Cons ution without a bill of rights. Here the Standard Modelers have often gone to the fullest available sources, especially the Do entary History of the Ratification of the Cons ution. But have they interpreted the evidence correctly? Cornell demonstrates that they have not. Although the Pennsylvania state cons ution of 1776 declares that "the people have a right to bear arms" both "for the defense of themselves and the State," the Revolutionary government’s Test Acts, hardly limited to the Loyalists, gave authorities wide la ude to curtail liberties, including the confiscation of arms. These Acts, which may have affected close to forty percent of the population, remained on the books until 1789, stoutly defended by political elements that would lead the Anti-Federalist forces. Indeed, at the time of the Carlisle Riots and the Whiskey Rebellion substantial voices from the elite ranks of Anti-Federalism supported disarming their former Anti-Federalist allies. 5 The whiskey rebels themselves did not justify taking up their muskets on the basis of the Second Amendment "but instead framed their actions in terms of a natural, not a cons utional, right of revolution." 6 On gun ownership, Anti-Federalists were not cut from the same cloth, a truism for other issues as well. Cornell, the preeminent authority on Pennsylvania Anti-Federalism, will not be easily dismissed.
    All this casts, light on why even the prominent Pennsylvania Anti-Federalists in Cornell’s essay had no sympathy for the Carlisle and whiskey rebels, who, without the approval of the state, took up arms and engaged in violence. Cornell’s study, along with my own work and that ofCarl Bogus and Michael Bellesiles, puts the federalized militia controversy at the time of the ratification fight of 1787-1788 in context with regard to the subsequent Second Amendment. The AntiFederalists’ concern was with the states having to share control of their militias with the federal government and not— to any degree yet demonstrated— with protecting gun rights of their local citizens outside of their obligation to serve in their respective states’ well-regulated militias.
    http://www.potowmack.org/higg.html

  2. #2
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Second amendment was passed in 1791 you ing idiot.

    Guns were a way of life. Individual possession was assumed. You couldn't run down to HEB and buy a ing bag of groceries to feed your family. Guns and hunting and family defense from indians and bad people were just assumed. Nobody was giving speeches to defend personal ownership of guns because everybody did it.

    It was about states right to resist an oppressive federal government.

    Got Damn you are determined to compete with Boutons for the honor of best village idiot.
    Last edited by CosmicCowboy; 01-15-2013 at 08:33 PM.

  3. #3
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    It was about states right to resist an oppressive federal government.
    I really don't see that reflected in the text of the Cons ution. I'm sure some of the founders had this in mind as a nice bonus, but if it's actually in the do ent, it is very well hidden.

  4. #4
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    I really don't see that reflected in the text of the Cons ution. I'm sure some of the founders had this in mind as a nice bonus, but if it's actually in the do ent, it is very well hidden.
    You have something to say about everything, but never something to say that amounts to anything.

  5. #5
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Second amendment was passed in 1791 you ing idiot.

    Guns were a way of life. Individual possession was assumed. You couldn't run down to HEB and buy a ing bag of groceries to feed your family. Guns and hunting and family defense from indians and bad people were just assumed. Nobody was giving speeches to defend personal ownership of guns because everybody did it.

    It was about states right to resist an oppressive federal government.

    Got Damn you are determined to compete with Boutons for the honor of best village idiot.
    He's trying to recover from the beat down I issued him with the more guns = more crime thing. He quit only 4 times then returned as I continued putting Peter North like, copious amounts of spewage of warm, creamy facts upon his ample forehead.

  6. #6
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I really don't see that reflected in the text of the Cons ution. I'm sure some of the founders had this in mind as a nice bonus, but if it's actually in the do ent, it is very well hidden.
    Consider that they had just pulled a christian fundamentalist jihad against the dominant military in the world and won. (See Afghanistan 2015 less the christianity part) They mistrusted dominant centralized governments. Have you really not read any of Adams and Jeffersons and Washingtons letters? You pretend to be intellectually well rounded.

  7. #7
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I highly recomend it:

  8. #8
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    Second amendment was passed in 1791 you ing idiot.

    Guns were a way of life. Individual possession was assumed. You couldn't run down to HEB and buy a ing bag of groceries to feed your family. Guns and hunting and family defense from indians and bad people were just assumed. Nobody was giving speeches to defend personal ownership of guns because everybody did it.

    It was about states right to resist an oppressive federal government.

    Got Damn you are determined to compete with Boutons for the honor of best village idiot.
    Your reading comprehension sucks. Simple questions:

    1) Is the ratification fight the same as the ratification?
    2) Is the Pennsylvania Cons ution of 1776 the Bill of Rights?
    3) Did you even read the article?

    He specifically addresses all your claims. He does not disagree that it was about the states arming their militias. He even goes through the reasons that were actually given in written do ents. What he is saying that the do ents that refer to the debate over the amendment never included the right of the individual. Critical thinking, dude.

  9. #9
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    He's trying to recover from the beat down I issued him with the more guns = more crime thing. He quit only 4 times then returned as I continued putting Peter North like, copious amounts of spewage of warm, creamy facts upon his ample forehead.
    I think you mistake me ignoring you and having better things to do.

    And why do you project erotic desires on Chump and I? The fact that you visualize that stuff on your own is pretty overt. You that flamboyant irl or do you just do it here so you can stay in the closet? I mean if you like that type of just keep it to yourself please. Its disconcerting. I don't like being hit on by men.

  10. #10
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Second amendment was passed in 1791 you ing idiot.

    Guns were a way of life. Individual possession was assumed. You couldn't run down to HEB and buy a ing bag of groceries to feed your family. Guns and hunting and family defense from indians and bad people were just assumed. Nobody was giving speeches to defend personal ownership of guns because everybody did it.

    It was about states right to resist an oppressive federal government.

    Got Damn you are determined to compete with Boutons for the honor of best village idiot.
    In the spirit of keeping "everything as it were then", would it be ok with you if the only weapons you are allowed to carry are the ones used back in 1791?

  11. #11
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    You have something to say about everything, but never something to say that amounts to anything.
    So don't read it. If you keep following me around, people will think you have a crush on me.

    Consider that they had just pulled a christian fundamentalist jihad against the dominant military in the world and won. (See Afghanistan 2015 less the christianity part) They mistrusted dominant centralized governments. Have you really not read any of Adams and Jeffersons and Washingtons letters? You pretend to be intellectually well rounded.
    Letters are letters. The Cons ution is the Cons ution. Were it that important, you'd think they'd have spelled it out in the actual original do ent and not throw in another thing about guns after the thing was ratified.

    You could be right though. They certainly didn't think the rights they laid out applied to women or blacks or natives.

  12. #12
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    In the spirit of keeping "everything as it were then", would it be ok with you if the only weapons you are allowed to carry are the ones used back in 1791?
    Nope. Simple answer. Back then the government had muskets and the citizens had muskets. Sounds fair to me.

  13. #13
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Nope. Simple answer. Back then the government had muskets and the citizens had muskets. Sounds fair to me.
    That's the point. It isn't like then anymore. And government already has the bigger guns, so that's a lost battle already.

  14. #14
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    So don't read it. If you keep following me around, people will think you have a crush on me.
    lol you post in every single thread and you claim I'm following you around? You post like 9 times in a thread where no one is even talking to you. You have a comment about everything, even a "." by someone gets a 4 paragraph response from you. You must live a ing ty life.

  15. #15
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    lol you post in every single thread and you claim I'm following you around? You post like 9 times in a thread where no one is even talking to you. You have a comment about everything, even a "." by someone gets a 4 paragraph response from you. You must live a ing ty life.
    Well, you are certainly making an effort to do ent it. That's even more sad.

    But keep responding to me. It's funny watching you get so pissy.

  16. #16
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Hm, I just found a letter from Washington saying he thought militias kind of sucked.

    Weird.

    I'm sure DMC has something to say about me and not the actual topic.

  17. #17
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    That's the point. It isn't like then anymore. And government already has the bigger guns, so that's a lost battle already.
    Yep, and when the government tells the army to turn their guns against the citizens all it takes is a few determined AF guys to blow the out of the government during the state of the union address.

  18. #18
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yep, and when the government tells the army to turn their guns against the citizens all it takes is a few determined AF guys to blow the out of the government during the state of the union address.


    Good Lord, the fantasies people are having.

  19. #19
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Yep, and when the government tells the army to turn their guns against the citizens all it takes is a few determined AF guys to blow the out of the government during the state of the union address.
    It almost never starts like that. You probably don't know because you never lived under a dictatorship. It normally starts with the army uprising against the civil government.

  20. #20
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    It almost never starts like that. You probably don't know because you never lived under a dictatorship. It normally starts with the army uprising against the civil government.
    Agreed. Except the US Army , Air Force, Marines, Etc. Have some really cool toys. If they are ever ordered to turn them against the civilian population where their wives, children, parents,and brothers and sisters live I'm pretty sure those wont be their first targets of opportunity.

  21. #21
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Good Lord, the fantasies people are having.
    As usual Chump living in his cocoon life doesn't get it.

  22. #22
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Agreed. Except the US Army , Air Force, Marines, Etc. Have some really cool toys. If they are ever ordered to turn them against the civilian population where their wives, children, parents,and brothers and sisters live I'm pretty sure those wont be their first targets of opportunity.
    If that were ever to pass, the order won't come from a civilian. And their families will be shielded. That's how it always works.

    This stuff has played out over and over in history. Just not in America.

  23. #23
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    As usual Chump living in his cocoon life doesn't get it.
    I think he gets it. I would agree with him it's pure fantasy.

  24. #24
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I think he gets it. I would agree with him it's pure fantasy.
    That the government in the 2000's would unleash the military on the civilian population?

    I certainly hope so. One would have to hope that there is some sanity in Washington.

  25. #25
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    As usual Chump living in his cocoon life doesn't get it.
    Of course I do. I just marvel at the cer ude shown in predicting the actions of strangers in a scenario that has zero chance of happening.

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