NBA: Lebron James is a lock for the TOP 10 GOAT list

[Cry Havoc]

You seriouly think Lebron is a Top 2-3 player? I mean come on. You have to be 15 years old or below to even consider that. You'd get laughed at everywhere except here.

Now? Of course not. His trajectory is top 3 though.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Now? Of course not. His trajectory is top 3 though.

How is this guy going to replace Magic Johnson and KAJ on that all time list. Please explain.

And No, I'm not a Kobe fan. I just enjoy basketball debates. If its a checkmate situation I'll raise a white flag, so far I haven't seen any concrete proof why Lebron is in but Kobe is not.

[Cry Havoc]

How is this guy going to replace Magic Johnson

KAJ is a separate discussion, but LeBron is already LEAGUES above Magic in defense. Johnson was probably a better facilitator, but nowhere near the offensive threat that James is. LeBron can hurt you from any range, can penetrate and destroy any defense in half court sets or on the run, and is overall a more complete player. Magic is phenomenal but his defense is definitely a liability if you're talking direct comparison.

Put it to you this way: Insert LeBron into that Showtime offense instead of Magic and tell me he wouldn't have been a terror.

[StrengthAndHonor]

KAJ is a separate discussion, but LeBron is already LEAGUES above Magic in defense. Johnson was probably a better facilitator, but nowhere near the offense threat that James is. LeBron can hurt you from any range, can penetrate and destroy any defense in half court sets or on the run, and is overall a more complete player. Magic is phenomenal but his defense is definitely a liability if you're talking direct comparison.

Put it to you this way: Insert LeBron into that Showtime offense instead of Magic and tell me he wouldn't have been a terror.

Alright, after that Kobe ego bombs. I'm going to put this conversation on hold.

[DMC]

Is dirk a top 20 player

In the West, maybe.

[Proxy]

So who's out of the top 10, then?

I would say Hakeem. His longevity doesn't compare to the other guys considered top 10, regardless of how high his peak was.

[Cry Havoc]

I would say Hakeem. His longevity doesn't compare to the other guys considered top 10, regardless of how high his peak was.

I could see that. I mean, Olajuwon was a better defender, better on offense, better intangibles, didn't self-destruct hall of fame teams. He was a 23+10+3 blocks and ~2 steals a game guy for 12 years straight. If I were building a franchise from scratch I would take Hakeem 52 weeks out of the year over Kobe if I had them to draft as rookies. It wouldn't even merit conversation. Hakeem won a le with nothing around him. Kobe's teams with multiple HOFers fail. No comparison.

[Killakobe81]

A couple of things I see in this thread: Kobe & Lebron both getting underrated, Shaq, Hakeem Duncan and Bird being slightly overrated.

Skill wise (foot-work form etc.) MJ>Lebron. But watch Lebron pass, or chase down blocks or rebound he does so much more for an elite team than even MJ in his prime did ...save scoring. Mj was a better shooter too (FT and jumpshot) and post player but if i needed a rebound, steal, block, pass lay-up or dunk Im choosing Lebron. He has the TALENT to be the GOAT and dude has a 10 year resume. If he wins one more le he is only 1 behind Larry Bird and could probably claim the all-time greatest SF le already. 3 finals appearances 1 victory and his MVPS make that race to me not really close and I saw Bird play in his prime. just watch him play ... Lebron is well deserving.


Oh and I love how people are looking at the top 10 lost and using the BS MVP/Finals MVP award argument ...the MVP award is crap. Many of you hate on Kobe winning in 2008 but use in a flawed argument. The first one they gave Karl Malone over MJ tainted that award just like in MLB when Kirk Gibson and Terry Pendleton won it ...

Top 10 should be about career over "peak", Rings, stats and impact on the game. Some rate in better in some categories over others. But I think MJ deserves the one spot with KAreem and Magic close behind (never saw Russell, Wilt or Oscar so I dont count them in my 10).

[ambchang]

The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally re ed. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies.




Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both?






Bynum didn't even play in those series. GTFO here lol.

You are right, very hard to win b2b Finals MVP because you are dependent on your team to win the Finals MVP, whereas the regular season MVP, the player has some/more control over it.

thinking winning championships, pretty much the prerequisite for the Finals MVP, is an individual accomplishment.

[sook]

Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the playffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good.

LeBron > Hakeem, already.

Before this...I've liked all your posts but this is just coming straight out of Narutoluva's ass!

[O.J. Simpson]

what is there to explain, Wilt, Russell, MJ i think should be obvious. Bird is very debatable but in my mind he was the better player (more points, more rebounds, better defender), Oscar Robertson had seasons with triple doubles (only one credited, but still). KAJ should also be obvious..

How the does this explain why Magic is not in the top 10?

Can we get a poll on this? I can't let this stupidity slide.

[Raven]

How the does this explain why Magic is not in the top 10?

Can we get a poll on this? I can't let this stupidity slide.

man why are you so butthurt about that, what's the offense in saying he is n6/n7 instead of 2-5? Just because people have not seen some of the older legends, you can't just disrespect them because Magic was showtime, can you?
Tell me how is putting
-the guy with the most les
-the best in the game
-the guy who averaged 50 points per game and a gazilion rebs
-the guy who averaged a triple double
-the guy who scored the most points ever

of any offense to anybody?

[Arcadian]

For those who doubt Hakeem and his longevity, he averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds for his first 12 seasons - in the 13th, he averaged 23 and 9. He was a dominant force from 1984-1997, both offensively and defensively. He was one of the best defensive centers ever. Maybe he didn't have longevity in terms of playoff success, but I think the back-to-back championships should nullify that. He came into a league dominated by the Lakers and Celtics, and then Jordan came onto the scene. Also, Hakeem got significantly better in his 30s, and he peaked later than most other stars. I maintain that peak performance is most important for this discussion.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...olajuha01.html

You can debate his accomplishments, but in terms of skills, he should clearly be on the list. He was basically a center with guard skills. There were a lot of great centers in the league in his time, but he was consistently the best. He beat Ewing's Knicks in 94 and Shaq's Magic in 95 (and we all know what he did to Robinson's Spurs).

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...nba/index.html

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...nba/index.html

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...nba/index.html

[O.J. Simpson]

man why are you so butthurt about that, what's the offense in saying he is n6/n7 instead of 2-5? Just because people have not seen some of the older legends, you can't just disrespect them because Magic was showtime, can you?
Tell me how is putting
-the guy with the most les
-the best in the game
-the guy who averaged 50 points per game and a gazilion rebs
-the guy who averaged a triple double
-the guy who scored the most points ever

of any offense to anybody?

lol @ you saying he's 6-7th now. And I've never seen anyone put ing Oscar Robertson over Magic.

Magic for sure... he should not be in the top 10 anyway...

Just a terrible take. Which 10 players would you put over Magic?

[Raven]

lol @ you saying he's 6-7th now. And I've never seen anyone put ing Oscar Robertson over Magic.



Just a terrible take. Which 10 players would you put over Magic?

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

[Cry Havoc]

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

You never watched Magic play. Just say it.

[stretch]

I think Magic tends to get a bit overrated by some people, but anyone who says anything other than top 10 is insane.

[ambchang]

My list, in order

Kareem/Jordan/Magic (I really have a hard time, I am serious)
Bird (due to his peak, if his back didn't gave out, could be higher)
Moses Malone
Russell (revolutionized the game on defense)
Wilt
Duncan/Shaq (one higher peak, other longer peak)
Hakeem
Big O
Dr. J (including ABA days)
West
John Havlicek
Kobe
Lebron
David Robinson
Dirk
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
Garnett

[Killakobe81]

ahhh i get it now, let me rephrase it properly.
he should not be in the top 10 statwise anyway but if we give it a pass because of the way he played, he's still behind Russell, Wilt, Bird, MJ, KAJ, Robertson and that's by being really really generous, since you'd have to cut out truly dominant players like shaq and others.

Any list that places Shaq over Magic is suspect even if you do a great job at the other 8 spots ...

[Ashy Larry]

If the Big O is in the top ten, he'd probably be the one that may have to be eliminated if James gets in. Dude didn't win his le until Kareem got with him, but the numbers he did put up were staggering.

[Riddler]

at anybody saying Hakeem shouldn't be top 10. Top 10 all time in steals, 1st in blocks.

[Killakobe81]

If you guys love stats both Malones and Oscar have some great ones, Elgin too. I don't rank guys I haven't seen myself though

[Raven]

Any list that places Shaq over Magic is suspect even if you do a great job at the other 8 spots ...

read again.

[99 Problems]

Top 10 greatest junk time players would actually be more fun to discuss. Note not worst but junk time. That would be seriously funny.

[StrengthAndHonor]

My list, in order

Kareem/Jordan/Magic (I really have a hard time, I am serious)
Bird (due to his peak, if his back didn't gave out, could be higher)
Moses Malone
Russell (revolutionized the game on defense)
Wilt
Duncan/Shaq (one higher peak, other longer peak)
Hakeem
Big O
Dr. J (including ABA days)
West
John Havlicek
Kobe
Lebron
David Robinson
Dirk
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
Garnett

This is the kind if stupid list I loathe. Who the puts Moses above Duncan or Shaq.