Spurs: If Tim Duncan had Kobe's foodstamps, How Many Rings does he get??

[JamStone]

You said Tim has let TP and Manu take over based on the assumption he doesn't have the ego to be the man. All excuses aside, I simply pointed out he has 3 out of 4 MVP's in the finals. If you look at the entire playoff run vs just the finals as well, Tim was clearly the man.

Fair enough.

My question still remains. If Duncan played with Shaq for 8 seasons, and assuming they win several les together say 5-6, do you believe Duncan wins any league MVPs or Finals MVPs?

I don't think he takes any. I don't see how Shaq doesn't put up next to 30-12 basically every year and doesn't dominate in the the playoffs as well. And that's probably even more especially because of Duncan. Can't always double team Shaq aggressively and leave Duncan. Shaq probably puts up even bigger monster numbers playing next to Duncan because double teams would have to come from the perimeter, not from Duncan's man. And because Shaq can't play the high post on offense, Duncan become more relegated to a high post, jump shooting big when he's on the court alongside Shaq. That limits his low post touches and shots. And unless you believe Shaq simply magically becomes less interested in getting his bulk share of touches or being a second banana to Duncan, Shaq will pretty much always put up the more dominant numbers between the two.

So the question remains, does Duncan win any MVPs if he had played next to Shaq for an 8 year stretch?

[JamStone]

Depends on who had the better series in the Finals, tbh. To me, it would be a coinflip for one main reason...Shaq has always respected Duncan way more than he has ever respected Kobe. He wouldn't mind sharing the workload with Duncan.

I don't think respect would have much to do with it. Shaq knew he was unstoppable in the post. He's not concede many of touches and shots when he knows he can score at will. Maybe he concedes some rebounds. I don't see him conceding being the primary focus of the offense. To me, Shaq would still always be around 30 PPG while Duncan would probably closer to around 20 PPG, especially because Duncan would have much fewer low post touches and shots playing next to Shaq. What, are they going to have Duncan in the post and put Shaq at the free throw line waiting for a kick out to hit a midrange jumper?

[SpursRock20]

I don't think respect would have much to do with it. Shaq knew he was unstoppable in the post. He's not concede many of touches and shots when he knows he can score at will. Maybe he concedes some rebounds. I don't see him conceding being the primary focus of the offense. To me, Shaq would still always be around 30 PPG while Duncan would probably closer to around 20 PPG, especially because Duncan would have much fewer low post touches and shots playing next to Shaq. What, are they going to have Duncan in the post and put Shaq at the free throw line waiting for a kick out to hit a midrange jumper?

I said a coinflip in the finals, as the series is a much smaller sample size compared to a regular season. Who knows? Maybe teams would double and triple team Shaq forcing him to pass it to the younger Duncan who would have the weight on his shoulders to get it done. But yeah, in the regular season Shaq would get almost all of the accolades. And Duncan wouldn't mind, as long as he's getting those rings, everything's good. They would have co-existed very well.

[DPG21920]

Fair enough.

My question still remains. If Duncan played with Shaq for 8 seasons, and assuming they win several les together say 5-6, do you believe Duncan wins any league MVPs or Finals MVPs?

I don't think he takes any. I don't see how Shaq doesn't put up next to 30-12 basically every year and doesn't dominate in the the playoffs as well. And that's probably even more especially because of Duncan. Can't always double team Shaq aggressively and leave Duncan. Shaq probably puts up even bigger monster numbers playing next to Duncan because double teams would have to come from the perimeter, not from Duncan's man. And because Shaq can't play the high post on offense, Duncan become more relegated to a high post, jump shooting big when he's on the court alongside Shaq. That limits his low post touches and shots. And unless you believe Shaq simply magically becomes less interested in getting his bulk share of touches or being a second banana to Duncan, Shaq will pretty much always put up the more dominant numbers between the two.

So the question remains, does Duncan win any MVPs if he had played next to Shaq for an 8 year stretch?

I think he at least gets a couple because he is & would have been so dominant defensively. He would have been the anchor defensively on multiple le teams and his offensive numbers would still probably be good enough to warrant the consideration. He probably would have averaged a fair amount of assists too because you know he would have no problem dumping it into Shaq early and often. It's tough, but I think he would probably sneak one or two finals MVP's in there.

[ambchang]

Fair enough.

My question still remains. If Duncan played with Shaq for 8 seasons, and assuming they win several les together say 5-6, do you believe Duncan wins any league MVPs or Finals MVPs?

I don't think he takes any. I don't see how Shaq doesn't put up next to 30-12 basically every year and doesn't dominate in the the playoffs as well. And that's probably even more especially because of Duncan. Can't always double team Shaq aggressively and leave Duncan. Shaq probably puts up even bigger monster numbers playing next to Duncan because double teams would have to come from the perimeter, not from Duncan's man. And because Shaq can't play the high post on offense, Duncan become more relegated to a high post, jump shooting big when he's on the court alongside Shaq. That limits his low post touches and shots. And unless you believe Shaq simply magically becomes less interested in getting his bulk share of touches or being a second banana to Duncan, Shaq will pretty much always put up the more dominant numbers between the two.

So the question remains, does Duncan win any MVPs if he had played next to Shaq for an 8 year stretch?

Between 97 and 05, the MVP votes Duncan and Shaq got are as follows:
98 – Shaq #4, Duncan #5
99 – Shaq #6, Duncan #3
00 – Shaq #1, Duncan #5
01 – Shaq #2, Duncan #3
02 – Shaq #3, Duncan #1
03 – Shaq #5, Duncan #1
04 – Shaq #6, Duncan #2
05 – Shaq #2, Duncan #4
Assuming that your 5-6 les estimation was sincere, you are talking about the pair winning about 75% of the available championships together between 98 to 05. Duncan was better in MVP voting in 4 of those 8 years, and it would hard pressed to say that Duncan will not be able to win at least one regular season MVP in those 8 years.
Also, Duncan not being ego-driven doesn’t mean he is not compe ive. If the team structure requires Duncan to step up, he will, and I believe Phil Jackson, or any other coach would have ran the offense through both Duncan and Shaq, with Duncan manning the defensive area on those teams.
That said, I don’t think the team would have won that many championships, a big man needs a guard, not another big man. Kobe was playing his second fiddle role very well in the 97 to 03 time frame, unless the Lakers got a decent PG, and a couple of shooters, I don’t see the Duncan Shaq combo going past the Kings and Jazz with regularity.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that with Duncan in the middle, Shaq will probably go company time more in the regular season, further undermining his chances, and boosting Duncan's chances, at the regular season MVP.

As for finals MVP, tough to say, who would have thought Worthy would ever win a finals MVP, or Cedric Maxwell?

[DPG21920]

But back in that time, having two dominant bigs was really, really important. Today things have shifted some, but I refuse to believe a Prime Shaq/Duncan would not win at least 6 les. Even with similar role players to the Spurs (let alone guys like Horry, Fisher...), they would have been too dominant.

[ambchang]

Nah, the league changed in 02, when they opened up perimeter offense by making things easy for perimeter offensive players like Kobe, AI, Carter and TMac. You can no longer guard a perimeter player like you could with post players, you can't touch them, you can't hold them, and the offense becomes much more one-on-one based since that time.

Sold a lot more jerseys and created a lot of superstars as well. Helped the league revenue-wise.

[JamStone]

I think he at least gets a couple because he is & would have been so dominant defensively. He would have been the anchor defensively on multiple le teams and his offensive numbers would still probably be good enough to warrant the consideration. He probably would have averaged a fair amount of assists too because you know he would have no problem dumping it into Shaq early and often. It's tough, but I think he would probably sneak one or two finals MVP's in there.

Warranting consideration is very different from actually winning. I still think Shaq ends up with considerable more points, even in the playoffs. And I'm sorry, but that would end up mattering in a Finals MVP vote. If Shaq averages 28-30 PPG versus Duncan averaging 20-22 PPG in the Finals, I don't think anchoring the defense would sway the vote the other way.

[JamStone]

Between 97 and 05, the MVP votes Duncan and Shaq got are as follows:
98 – Shaq #4, Duncan #5
99 – Shaq #6, Duncan #3
00 – Shaq #1, Duncan #5
01 – Shaq #2, Duncan #3
02 – Shaq #3, Duncan #1
03 – Shaq #5, Duncan #1
04 – Shaq #6, Duncan #2
05 – Shaq #2, Duncan #4
Assuming that your 5-6 les estimation was sincere, you are talking about the pair winning about 75% of the available championships together between 98 to 05. Duncan was better in MVP voting in 4 of those 8 years, and it would hard pressed to say that Duncan will not be able to win at least one regular season MVP in those 8 years.
Also, Duncan not being ego-driven doesn’t mean he is not compe ive. If the team structure requires Duncan to step up, he will, and I believe Phil Jackson, or any other coach would have ran the offense through both Duncan and Shaq, with Duncan manning the defensive area on those teams.
That said, I don’t think the team would have won that many championships, a big man needs a guard, not another big man. Kobe was playing his second fiddle role very well in the 97 to 03 time frame, unless the Lakers got a decent PG, and a couple of shooters, I don’t see the Duncan Shaq combo going past the Kings and Jazz with regularity.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that with Duncan in the middle, Shaq will probably go company time more in the regular season, further undermining his chances, and boosting Duncan's chances, at the regular season MVP.

As for finals MVP, tough to say, who would have thought Worthy would ever win a finals MVP, or Cedric Maxwell?

MVP ranks during those years are irrelevant in application to this hypothetical scenario. If the two play together, it's obvious that at least one of them will end up sacrificing production, and don't get the same type of MVP consideration. Duncan becomes a more of a jump shooting PF and his FG% probably declines. While Shaq still probably puts up around 30/10. Their respective MVP ranks would not be the same. It's more than a stretch to believe they would, especially when you're talking about two dominant big guys who do similar things on the same team. One will sacrifice their game for the other.

It's possible Duncan could sneak a Finals MVP somewhere, just like Worthy or Maxwell or Tony Parker. But if Shaq is who Shaq was and is putting up 30/10 in the Finals, I think it's unlikely. Perhaps when he's older in the 2003 season and beyond and can't log as many minutes. Maybe that's a chance for Duncan, I guess. But I'm still not convinced.

[ambchang]

So your assumption is that Duncan will sacrifice, while Shaq won't, and I am not quite sure that will be the case. Shaq sacrificed for Kobe from 2002 onwards, and deferred to Wade. Sure his mouth kept yapping, but it's clear he deferred to his perimeter players as long as they publicly admit to the Lakers/Heat being Shaq's team.

Also, it will be stupid for Phil not to at least run the offense through Duncan half the time, especially in the regular season. A high post based offense, taking advantage of Duncan's height, range, and relatively good outside shooting will decrease wear-and-tear on Shaq, while allowing the offensive flow to be more liquid and hard to predict.

[Leetonidas]

People said LeBron wouldn't win an MVP with Bosh/Wade on his team either...

[Koolaid_Man]

not less than 8, IMHO. as many as 10. Those champion Celtic and Heat teams were out for blood, tbh.

If Kobe had Duncan's trampstamp how Popular would he be?

Fact is the most important ring is that dude's tongue ring..it's the single most important reason his got ass couldn't get more...

[Latarian Milton]

spurs whole share of foodstamps were taken by the same bald so duncan as well as the rest of his team has already benefited from foodstamps. he might have collected more points but i dont believe he would've won any more rings had he taken the foodstamps himself tbh