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It does ...but not much. Not a big fan of any of the awards but finals MVP is one they get right most of the time ...
Amazing player no doubt. Love Larry Legend. But his carrer was shortened by back injury. So career wise Hakeem, duncan Shaq etc were major factors longer in the league imho.When Bird started to peter out after the 1987 season and maybe even before. I loved our victory in 1987 over the Celts but if you watch that finals you could tell Bird was already on teh decline. he still gave us fits nut that was because he was great. Everyone knocks Hakeem for a short prime but if you really look at it Bird's true dominance pretty much ends in 1986 when his back started to flare up on him ...
I also dont get why grouping (speaking for myself) Bird with Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/Hakeem is some type of underrating or borderline insult ... no matter what you think about them as bags (Not tim) those are 5 of the best to ever do it ...
Not knocking you Amb, but in some circles it's blasphemy to already give the all-time SF spot to James ... and for me with only 1 ring I agree ... but Lebron is in his 10th year he nly needs a few more at a high level to pass Bird. Most of those seasons (even with his flaws) palyed at a supremely high level. I still rate Larry Legend over Lebron ... that is the best compliment I can give him. But I doubt I will for much longer. I never saw Rick B so cant speak to how good he was but I have hear other long-time fans say he had some Larry Legend in his game.
It does ...but not much. Not a big fan of any of the awards but finals MVP is one they get right most of the time ...
Well. I can see how bird is knocked down a notch with his shorter career, but his dominance was as much as an 01 shaq or 94/5 Hakeem, only he did it 3 years in a row. It really was insane.
As for Lebron. Too early. He was on some very crappy teams I his career, but his failure against the mags was just too much of a blotch on his otherwise goat resume.
Btw. Barry was good. Too much of a destructive player on his team though. Sort of like Larry brown of players.
The award by this time was a sham. Shaq probably got robbed of at least one (duncan too) but maybe he got one he didnt deserve ...who knows?! my point is that award should really mean nothing in these type debates.
Karl over MJ tainted this award ...(not even sure Chuck over Mj was deserved either) ... but when voters stopped picking MJ due to voter fatigue or some crap ... that award (for me) doesnt mean jack.
Some writers even said flat out "well MJ is the MVP every year ... but Im voting for: ...X." Which is bull.
For example though (Kobe does not have a strong case over MJ) imagine how much weaker it would be if it was 8 or 9 MVPs to 1?!
But the award has been suspect. Awarding James recently has been one of the few times they have gotten it right.
But let's take it further we all know MJ should of won more MVp's ...Lebron may very well win more of them the Jordan does ...that sway the Mj vs. Lebron debate ...even though the award was suspect post MJ?
Fior those that discount rings ... doest more rings trump more MVP awards even though it's a "team-sport". How many team sports are dominated by a single player as much as b-ball? Just saying ...
Not saying MVP was absolutely 100% reliable, but it certainly is a better gauge than ships. Outside of those b2b Nash shams and the Malone ones, I can't really think of any that is absolutely ridiculous.
Shaq was great, just took too many regular season games off.
Who the uses another poster to validate their posts? What the are you? 8 years old?
You just did. I used your criteria to demonstrate how idiotic you are by basing your lists on somebody else's input and not your own observations. Thanks for proving that you have no grounds to argue with me wrt Malone and let me know you are 8.Who the uses another poster to validate their posts? What the are you? 8 years old?
Also, please respond to The rest of the post. I want to know what you have read through google. Maybe you read Malone won no MVP's and averaged 12/8 during his peak or something. With the errors you've made in this forum in such a short amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised.
Disagree ...but we have been down that road. I just think in all sports whether team or individual the VERY best win les. Sure there is the occasional barry Sanders, Dan Marino and Karl MAlone ...(who was not flawless) but to me you cant be on any all-time list without a le. And if you are a top 10 guy on that list you need multiple ... that is what seperates the all-time guys from the great. You need at LEAst two imho ...to be in the convo. And of the major US sports (well maybe a hockey goalie) one player can make more of a difference in basketball. Sure none won by themselves, even MJ had HOF help. But to discount the ultimate prize for the ultimate compe ors seems silly. And the thing that cracks me up about most on here when a player breaks through like Dirk, KG etc. people go out of the way to to give them credit usually overrating their place teh following season ... but when it comes to discussing legacy want to say it doesnt matter much?
MJ would be a great player without 6 rings. But those 6 rings validate his greatness. IF Mj had only 3 rings ... Im sorry no way could I give him the edge on Kareem (or Magic). He knew this ... he has said it drove him to surpass Larry and Magic in rings. But fans now want to use advanced stats and other measures when in the end ...the ring is what matters most ...to most fans and the players themselves.
And Finals MVP's are better than regular season ones but Dumars, Kareem, Worthy Parker won finals MVps on teams they were not the MVP of their own team in the regular season or even for the whole playoffs. For me awards mean little ... Im not saying that MVPs are ALl suspect I just think the process got tainted during the MJ era. And since we are discussing GOAT and I thnk we ALL agree the consensus GOAT got shafted a few of these awards ... then why whould they matter much?
Im pretty sure Stocton,Malone or Jazz fans would trade their PER or win share numbers for a ring. Robinson in his prime had amazing efficiency numbers (I remember he used to win the Schick award which was an early efficency metric) and a MVP but when you watch him he just does not seem like a top 10 contending player. But look at Tim carry the Spurs to 4 les you can just SEE the diffrence. The rings just validate what we already know Tim duncan is a bad man , Robinson is great but not duncan great.
Truth is no one factor: rings, career stats, awards etc can definitively answer the question ... that is why I said I only use rings if thw players are close. For me Isiah vs. Stockton is close. I am not a stat guy Stockton has better caeer numbers but I think a prime Isiah eats him alive (the game were KArl Malone busted his head open Isiah was murdering Stockton IIRC)
Magic and Bird are fairly close but 5 vs. 3 plus a 2 out of 3 head to head in Finals for MAgic pushes Magic ahead for me. I know it's "my way" no it's not scientific. I just think when great players are that close the ultimate tie-breaker should be rings.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 01-24-2013 at 09:47 AM.
We have talked about this, and we should just agree to disagree. My point is that Jordan would have been the same player if he was stuck on a horrible team and never won the championship. He probably wouldn't be viewed as the GOAT by the mass public, but he would be the exact same player.
As for KG, Pierce was more of a piece in that championship than him. Dirk deserves the accolades, because he should have received those BEFORE he won the championship. Check my posting history, I have said time and again that Dirk is for real, and that label of a choker was stupid.
Not exactly getting your drift on the Finals MVP. I would say that it is better for a player to win the Finals MVP than a regular season MVP, because outside of Jerry West, all of them can say they won the championship, but from an individual ability validation perspective, it is certainly better to win the regular season championship. Regular season MVP means you are the most valuable player in an entire league over the course of the season, Finals MVP means that you are the most valuable player on a fantastic team that won a championship over 4 to 7 games.
The thing about regular season MVP is, Jordan got shafted a couple of times and still won 5, tells you how good he is. Of course, in goat talk, we also have to take into account compe ion, team make up, etc ... because all those things affect regular season MVPs, but they do not affect them as much as they affect Finals MVP or championships.
Players would definitely trade better statistics for rings, but that doesn't mean that rings are worth more in GOAT discussions. Many people will trade their career achievements for happiness, but that doesn't mean that a happier guy had a better career.
David Robinson was effective as , and when you watch him, you KNOW he is one of the top players in the league. His problem is that he gets double and triple teamed throughout his entire career because he had a PG who made ONE 3 pointer in his career. Remember how well the Rockets did when Hakeem was averaged by a bunch of scrubs who couldn't shoot 3s? he averaged 18.5 ppg and 22ppg in the playoffs. Every year when HAM in the playoffs, he was surrounded by good to great three point shooting teams or teams without good interior defenders (87, 88, 94, 95). When Robinson had Rod Strickland and was facing GSW, he averaged 25/13/4. I have absolutely no doubt that if you had Robinson on a well constructed team, let's say sub him for Karl Malone on the Jazz, Robinson would have won at least 1 championship in the 90s. His play, and the lack of championships on his team, was a direct function of the team that was built around him.
As for Isiah vs. Stockton, I would say numbers-wise, they are pretty much around even, even during H2Hs. Ever since Stockton round into form, they have been pretty even outside of two games where Thomas absolutely exploded, but we know that is Isiah, he is a streaky shooter, and when his jumpshot is on, there is no way of stopping him, just that you don't know when his jumper would be on.
Magic vs. Bird is a toss up to me, sure Magic won 5, but again, that is a team build up and less injuries argument. I may give it to Magic due to his longer prime, but Bird, in his peak, ate everyone alive.
That's stupid tbh. I never used posters opinion in this forum to do my battles for me. You need to man up and explain why Malone is ahead of Duncan and Shaq. Tbh. I'm waiting.
I did multiple times. Read. I can't teach you to read what I just wrote, you have to gather up the courage, look in the mirror and tell yourself not to act like a re anymore. I know you are a troll of a very knowledgeable guy, and is using this re trick to troll, but come up with some new material other than "I am not convinced" or just making up.
And you just flat out said you never watched Malone played. Only read about him with other people's rankings.
Learn to read your own posts too.
No he isn't and there were about 20 great players in the league back then,
about 10 of them were on Russell's team..
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