Heat: Lebron's reign maybe longer than I thought ...

[Koolaid_Man]

Exactly Stretch.
I know MJ was a bball God in a time when many of you were kids ... but the canonization of MJ borders on the ridiculous. Maybe MJ is better than Lebron I still said he was GOAT but the MJ would on James rhetoric ischildish banter. The gap between the two is shrinking and when you watch JAmes develop the other parts of his game you can argue there are parts of Lebron's that has surpassed MJ.

Also I know the MVP award is hore ... but if voting isdone fairly Lebron wins again this year and will probably pull off the MVP/Finals MVP in backtoback years ...something many posters on here seem to give so much credence to.

I posted this in another thread for you but it belongs here as well:

Lebron is good...but I just don't see things the way you do...I don't feel like he's really earned anything...his path seems to easy compared to MJ and Kobe...and I cannot respect that...he's playing in a new era that is weak and cheap tbh....it really is a pussified league now...I mean when you got lebron's Mamma literally running onto the court to protect him which was bad enough and then him telling her to go sit her ass down...I probably will never respect the guy...plus he's not going through tough teams like MJ and Kobe did..

to me the early 90's Knicks teams was the greatest defensive team of all time. Starks, Gerald Wilkins, X-Man, Anthony Mason, Oakley, and Ewing...was sick as on defense and nearly impossible to consistently score on. I just imagined replacing Ewing with Olajuwon....talk about ing sick...even the Bad Boy's lead by Zeke...Rodman, Laimbeer, J-Salley, Mahorn, Dumars, Vinnie...MJ consistently lost to this team..these cats were hardcore...and it's the ultimate reason I give MJ the nod over Kobe...he just had to face some wicked ass defenses...and he overcame it too...bit it's widely agree'd by many coaches and GM's that Kobe is probably the only player today that could have played in that era given is penchant for throwing elbows and his toughness of playing through injuries with a game patterned after MJ's.

So while not the Pistons or Knicks...Kobe has faced his own level of teams and defenders that were pretty tough...starting with the Spurs that were anchored by the defensive presence of Tim Duncan with Bowen as a prime wing defender...also great wing defending teams such as the Kings and Trailblazzers. Kobe had to face individuals defenders such as prime Artest, Bowen, Shefalosa, Dahntay Jones, James Posey, Tayshaun, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Tony Allen, Battier, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Eric Snow...all great wing defenders when in their primes...especially Bowen...Kobe even had to deal with Pippen and Rodman...though not prime Pippen and Rodman...but he's had to earn his stripes through tough defenders...Rodman even pointed that out and said that's why he'd pick Mj and Kobe over Lebron...they've proven their toughness...Lebron just may be a victim of a WEAK ERA...

He's good but he doesn't have the mental make-up to deal with such teams as the Knicks and Pistons...or Spurs for that matter...a prime Lebron going against a prime Spurs team lead by Duncan gets swept in the finals...in our generation his game is tailored made for the Spurs team anchored by Duncan to defend and stop him...but they had a harder time trying to stop Kobe from his relentless offensive assualts on them...Lebron can't sustain that level of energy he's too big and doesn't have the array of moves MJ and Kobe has.

The question now is WHO HAS A PRIME LEBRON FACED?

What prime tough defensive teams has he gone through...To me his lone compe or at his positin (Melo) pretty much s on him when they play one on one. Lebron won't take the Melo assignment but rather he defers to Battier...that's why I don't respect him...he's quick to jump all over D-Rose because he's physically bigger but when faced with a player of his own size (Melo) or a player who doens't respect him (Danny Granger) he starts to nut up. He will make the top 5 list if he wins 3 les but as far as I'm concerned he's faced no real compe ion enroute to those les (except a non-prime old and battered Boston team). When he had a clear chance to meet up with Kobe in the finals he faked an elbow injury when his cavs team could have beaten Boston. I just can't cut for this cat...he's not real to me....MJ and Kobe I give them their props as 1-2

[TDMVPDPOY]

You don't reason very well do you?

I said it would be easier for them to guard him vs the other way around...let me school you..see if you can keep up cuz imma go real fast here....when not in transition for tomahawk dunks...Lebron likes to mainly score off screens...when being guarded straight up by a player of size he'll either pass or try to find a screen that will allow him to get an angle or cut to the basket for an easy score...with MJ or Kobe in front of him he can't screen off anything he has to crab dribble all the way to the basket or settle for the jumper...so to answer your question this is why MJ and Kobe would have the advantage...they have many moves to the basket...including a potent mid range and low post game...you're outta you're got dam mind if you think Lebron has a good low post game other than his power dunk when he has a clear path to the rim...Dude went to Hakeem for lessons ONLY after he saw Kobe go to Hakeem...and he still has busted up ass post game...

like Kobe said a few yrs back "I'd beat Lebron one on one in my sleep." - Kobe - and what's funny about that is Lebron never denied it

Lebron just learned how to handle pressure...he just learned how to start taking the last shot when it counts...do you forget how just a year ago he refused to shoot when the game was on the line...ohh how quickly we forget...

lebron has a winning record against kobe, so tell me htf does kobe beats him in his sleep or whatever world his on

[Pelicans78]

I agree with Kool-Aid.

[TIMMYtoZO]

Lebron is a the icon of the NBA. Winning the le last year was bad news for the league. He has figured it out which has given him even more swagger. Durant will win the MVP due to the league wanting a new winner, but Lebron is dominating on a level Durant can only dream of. That moment when he told the Heat fan to pass the ball with more power was a touching moment. What a good guy.

[Lincoln]

How did he manage to lose to the Mavs though with wade and bosh? Was it Dallas perimeter defense along with Tyson, him choking, or just playing a bad series?

I never understood how he went from dominant to sub par in one series.

[Koolaid_Man]

lebron has a winning record against kobe, so tell me htf does kobe beats him in his sleep or whatever world his on

what does 1 on 1 have to do with team play....ohh that's right nothing...

wtach this vid.... Lebron typically scores his points on Kobe's team..while Kobe scores his points on Lebron.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2Ajrw16ZA

[TDMVPDPOY]

what does 1 on 1 have to do with team play....ohh that's right nothing...

wtach this vid.... Lebron typically scores his points on Kobe's team..while Kobe scores his points on Lebron.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2Ajrw16ZA

im not talkin about individual performances, im talkin about team h2h clown...both of those he owns against kobe

[stretch]

what does 1 on 1 have to do with team play....ohh that's right nothing...

wtach this vid.... Lebron typically scores his points on Kobe's team..while Kobe scores his points on Lebron.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2Ajrw16ZA

This post contradicts yourself in so many ways its not even funny.

[stretch]

How did he manage to lose to the Mavs though with wade and bosh? Was it Dallas perimeter defense along with Tyson, him choking, or just playing a bad series?

I never understood how he went from dominant to sub par in one series.

I believe it was a combo of the Mavs defense, and him not wanting to step on Wade's shoes. After game 1, it seemed like the Mavs were focused on one thing - not letting Lebron do anything. They directed so much defensive attention to him it was crazy, while they let Wade basically go one on one with whomever he wanted to, and the Mavs lived with it. I believe that they felt Lebron's ability to create for teammates was greater than what Wade could bring to the table, they they focused entirely on Lebron, and it worked.

The other thing is, the Heat was still viewed as "Wade's Team". I think if Lebron went into the series knowing that it was his team, and he went out and did whatever he wanted like he is doing now, the Heat would have had much more success. It just doesn't make sense for him to have so many clutch moments against strong defensive teams like the Celtics and Bulls, then go against the Mavs and suddenly he has a lot of dead moments. He just seemed non-aggressive at times, which I think is partly due to the abnormally high amount of defensive attention, but also he seemed to try to defer to Wade. Once he got past that mentality (this past year), we all see how easily he dominates the league now.

[Koolaid_Man]

This post contradicts yourself in so many ways its not even funny.

Please explain..I'm listening...

[D-Wade]

How did he manage to lose to the Mavs though with wade and bosh? Was it Dallas perimeter defense along with Tyson, him choking, or just playing a bad series?

I never understood how he went from dominant to sub par in one series.

Mental. Wade had been there before and thrived when he was there. Bron played in a Finals that no one expected him to win. And he was already developing the reputation of shrinking in the biggest moments.

If Lebron played just to half of his potential in 2011, with Wade playing as well as he was, we'd already have not one but two

[Koolaid_Man]

Mental. Wade had been there before and thrived when he was there. Bron played in a Finals that no one expected him to win. And he was already developing the reputation of shrinking in the biggest moments.

If Lebron played just to half of his potential in 2011, with Wade playing as well as he was, we'd already have not one but two

D-Whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_M...1&feature=fvwp

[lefty]

if he played today, there are better wing players today at his position for hiim to go up against

now back in the 90s, the so called jordan stoppers were all fkn scrubs who never or know to be defensive stoppers or appear on any defensive teams...

jordan is the most overrated and over glorify nba player who benefit from NIKE, and slow motion technology...

Why do you guys keep bringing up wingers ?

MJ was a SG who played vs SG's

And some of the SGs MJ faced were no slouch


Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Blackman gave MJ fits on both ends of the court

Starks was a pretty good defender, and yet MJ lit him up for 54 pts in the ECF



TBH, Lebron hasnt faced a lot of great defensive players in his career

[HarlemHeat37]

Dumars was like 6'1, as was John Starks..

Richmond was a good defender, but he was one of the only good defenders on the wing that possessed Jordan's size..

You can count early Rodman and certain defenders in the 80s, but I'm strictly referencing Jordan's le runs..

There are many defenders in this current era that would give Jordan more problems than the perimeter wings in the 90s, tbh..



Koolaidman is delusional if he thinks I'm acually going to read everything he wrote, tbh..the fact that he mentions Kobe and has attempted to include him with Jordan is laughable..

[HarlemHeat37]

Miami had an elite defense for both Finals runs with Lebron anchoring the D and guarding the opposing team's best wing for long stretches..Iguodala, Pierce x2, Derrick Rose/Luol Deng, Danny Granger, Carmelo Anthony..he didn't guard Durant much, to be fair..

Jordan only guarded the opposing team's best wing for short stretches, Pippen almost always took the assignment..

Kobe has rarely guarded the opposing team's best, despite the beliefs of Al-Quobe..Rick Fox/Ariza/Artest always took the assignments..he shouldn't even be mentioned in this argument, tbh..

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not selling Wade short, btw, he's one of the best defensive 2-guards of all-time, but he was injured and he's too small to guard most of those SFs that Lebron had to guard..

[Ace]

How did he manage to lose to the Mavs though with wade and bosh? Was it Dallas perimeter defense along with Tyson, him choking, or just playing a bad series?

I never understood how he went from dominant to sub par in one series.

Miami relied completely on talent and defense all the way up to the finals. Mavs exposed Miami's lack of an offensive scheme outside of Isos and for as good as Miami's defense was, Dirk wouldn't be denied. Miami also had no bench, while the Mavs were deep and shooting lights out. Simply put, the Mavs played better as a team on both ends, exposing Miami.

[Lincoln]

Miami had an elite defense for both Finals runs with Lebron anchoring the D and guarding the opposing team's best wing for long stretches..Iguodala, Pierce x2, Derrick Rose/Luol Deng, Danny Granger, Carmelo Anthony..he didn't guard Durant much, to be fair..

Jordan only guarded the opposing team's best wing for short stretches, Pippen almost always took the assignment..

Kobe has rarely guarded the opposing team's best, despite the beliefs of Al-Quobe..Rick Fox/Ariza/Artest always took the assignments..he shouldn't even be mentioned in this argument, tbh..

How do you think Lebron would've done on dirk? It rarely happened that series. Although Haarlem and bosh and Anthony did nice on dirk, he had a very poor finals tbh despite the clutch game winners and crunch time points

[tenbeersbold]

Mavs knew exactly where to push Lebron to on the court to limit his effectiveness
No reason why someone cant do that again...MJ never had that achilles heel

[spurraider21]

I posted this in another thread for you but it belongs here as well:

Lebron is good...but I just don't see things the way you do...I don't feel like he's really earned anything...his path seems to easy compared to MJ and Kobe...and I cannot respect that...he's playing in a new era that is weak and cheap tbh....it really is a pussified league now...I mean when you got lebron's Mamma literally running onto the court to protect him which was bad enough and then him telling her to go sit her ass down...I probably will never respect the guy...plus he's not going through tough teams like MJ and Kobe did..

to me the early 90's Knicks teams was the greatest defensive team of all time. Starks, Gerald Wilkins, X-Man, Anthony Mason, Oakley, and Ewing...was sick as on defense and nearly impossible to consistently score on. I just imagined replacing Ewing with Olajuwon....talk about ing sick...even the Bad Boy's lead by Zeke...Rodman, Laimbeer, J-Salley, Mahorn, Dumars, Vinnie...MJ consistently lost to this team..these cats were hardcore...and it's the ultimate reason I give MJ the nod over Kobe...he just had to face some wicked ass defenses...and he overcame it too...bit it's widely agree'd by many coaches and GM's that Kobe is probably the only player today that could have played in that era given is penchant for throwing elbows and his toughness of playing through injuries with a game patterned after MJ's.

So while not the Pistons or Knicks...Kobe has faced his own level of teams and defenders that were pretty tough...starting with the Spurs that were anchored by the defensive presence of Tim Duncan with Bowen as a prime wing defender...also great wing defending teams such as the Kings and Trailblazzers. Kobe had to face individuals defenders such as prime Artest, Bowen, Shefalosa, Dahntay Jones, James Posey, Tayshaun, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Tony Allen, Battier, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Eric Snow...all great wing defenders when in their primes...especially Bowen...Kobe even had to deal with Pippen and Rodman...though not prime Pippen and Rodman...but he's had to earn his stripes through tough defenders...Rodman even pointed that out and said that's why he'd pick Mj and Kobe over Lebron...they've proven their toughness...Lebron just may be a victim of a WEAK ERA...

He's good but he doesn't have the mental make-up to deal with such teams as the Knicks and Pistons...or Spurs for that matter...a prime Lebron going against a prime Spurs team lead by Duncan gets swept in the finals...in our generation his game is tailored made for the Spurs team anchored by Duncan to defend and stop him...but they had a harder time trying to stop Kobe from his relentless offensive assualts on them...Lebron can't sustain that level of energy he's too big and doesn't have the array of moves MJ and Kobe has.

The question now is WHO HAS A PRIME LEBRON FACED?

What prime tough defensive teams has he gone through...To me his lone compe or at his positin (Melo) pretty much s on him when they play one on one. Lebron won't take the Melo assignment but rather he defers to Battier...that's why I don't respect him...he's quick to jump all over D-Rose because he's physically bigger but when faced with a player of his own size (Melo) or a player who doens't respect him (Danny Granger) he starts to nut up. He will make the top 5 list if he wins 3 les but as far as I'm concerned he's faced no real compe ion enroute to those les (except a non-prime old and battered Boston team). When he had a clear chance to meet up with Kobe in the finals he faked an elbow injury when his cavs team could have beaten Boston. I just can't cut for this cat...he's not real to me....MJ and Kobe I give them their props as 1-2

complaining Lebron defers assignments to battier
Jordan played next to best wing defender of his era
had pippen AND rodman in 2nd stint

[lefty]

There are many defenders in this current era that would give Jordan more problems than the perimeter wings in the 90s, tbh..



.

What

[TDMVPDPOY]

What

lol gerald wilkins

[stretch]

How do you think Lebron would've done on dirk? It rarely happened that series. Although Haarlem and bosh and Anthony did nice on dirk, he had a very poor finals tbh despite the clutch game winners and crunch time points

He didn't shoot the ball at a high % (3 of the games he shot well, the other 3 not), but he didn't have a poor finals by any means. Miami was scared less of him, focused most of their defense on him and it opened the floor up like crazy for his teammates. He rebounded solidly and got to the line quite a bit too.

[TDMVPDPOY]

He didn't shoot the ball at a high % (3 of the games he shot well, the other 3 not), but he didn't have a poor finals by any means. Miami was scared less of him, focused most of their defense on him and it opened the floor up like crazy for his teammates. He rebounded solidly and got to the line quite a bit too.

in a close game, i dont think it hurts if you shoot like when the both teams arent doing any scoring...u can afford to brick a new house, just hit the shots during the game when changes in momentum occurs...

[stretch]

Mavs knew exactly where to push Lebron to on the court to limit his effectiveness
No reason why someone cant do that again...MJ never had that achilles heel

Yes he did.

The Pistons played mind games with him for 3 straight years by talking to him non-stop and bullying him, knowing that his extreme compe ive playing style would cause him to shut out his teammates. Not to mention he had some of his less memorable games against them.