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u guys oozing over kobes scoring streak....give any volume shooter on a 1 man team those sort of touches
bron is the most complete player to ever play this game imho. he can certainly score 40+ points on a given night when he wants but he's found a better way to help his team. while kobe is made to be a scorer and there's not really much else he can do as good as scoring on the court imho
u guys oozing over kobes scoring streak....give any volume shooter on a 1 man team those sort of touches
When you constantly take 30-40 fga at some point a player with catch a hot streak. LeBron is playing better limiting his fga at around 15, sharing the ball. The Lakers team are always reasonable stacked and they were coached by Phil. It's still amazing Kobe had stamina to play like that, but tbh I have no doubts MJ would better that with the rule changes that make the life easier for wing players nowdays.
I think the majority of Spurfan worships him because without him there is no Spurs dynasty. He is considered at the cornerstone of the franchise, the first rock of the foundation of the Spurs are today. Obviously Duncan is 110% of the franchise success but for that one needed a starting point and this guy is the Admiral.I think the majority of Spurfan worships him more for the person he isclass
A lot of spurs fans living out of San Antonio started to root for the Spurs because of him. Dude was extremely hyped in Europe for instance.
And as you mentioned he is all class
Two factors to the OP question.
1. Lebron as a player is more impressive than Kobe during his streak because LEbron makes it look easy and without Wade's contributions this could easily be a 40 point streak though I do believe his FG% would suffer a bit if he did that ...
2. What Kobe actually did is more impressive because of the fact he is NOT as gifted athletically as Bron and played with lessor players. Kobe had to work for those points even if scoring comes natural for him ... LEbron some nights looks like he is Senior all city player moving back down to JV ... he just has no compe ion. As many have said he makes Wade a HOF all NBA player look like a regular all-star ...even though Wade is benefiting from his greatness. JAmes is wearing teams down for 3 quarters and Wade is providing the knockout blows ...
Though both streaks helped their teams win ... I Would rather have (Accomplish) Lebron's which I think why most favor him as a player because Lebron playes a more team style of play. Honestly to max out both players potential Kobe (who is no Lebron as a paaer but a great one when he does it), could use more of Lebron's mindset ...and without a doubt if James had Kobe's he would of beat the Mavs in 2011 and probably at least win one game against the Spurs in 2007 ...Kobe could of definitely used Lebron's mindset in 2004 and earlier this year ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-13-2013 at 09:02 AM.
But the thig was, David was a favorite of the early advanced stats guys. It's just more of the general NBA fan that has jumped onboard as the Hollinger's, Simmons and Lowe's have given the numbers a "voice". David was an amazing player. I remember him winning the Schick award at least twice IIRC (based on early advanced metrics) ...Complicated answer, obviously but leading reasons:
1. Robinson played in a poor era for his skillset. If he plays during Showtime or in today's game, he's unstoppable. Unfortunately for him, he played in a slow era that allowed tons of contact. Bad luck.
2. His lack of low-post game hurt. But, really, it wasn't his fault. Robinson was 7-foot-1 with a 30-inch waste, he didn't have the body type to be great posting up. I'm not the world's biggest KG fan but I think it's silly when he gets criticized for not ever developing a low-post game. Players who are top heavy and skinny physically can't be great on the block. In the playoffs, having a big with a low-post game was deadly -- especially in the illegal defense era. Today, it's not as deadly due to the zone rules.
3. Bad roster composition. If you have a dominant big, you surround him with three-point shooters to create space for him. The Rockets had the best three-point shooting teams in the NBA in 1994 and 1995. , even the Magic figured out that surrounding D-Ho with three-point shooters would maximize his skills. Robinson was stuck on a team that couldn't shoot so the opposition could double or triple him without care.
4. Coaching was obviously bad. Teammates were pretty damn bad prior to Duncan. Sean Elliott is one of my favorite players ever but he was massively overrated. A two-time All-Star who never had a PER above 16.3? WTF, that doesn't even make sense in retrospect.Leonard as a rookie had a higher PER than Elliott ever had. Robinson's best teammate during his prime was Rodman ... and he wasn't even interested in playing basketball.
I see merit in claims that Robinson didn't have a killer instinct or whatever. When you play in the Michael Jordan era and are compared to MJ's compe iveness that bordered on mental illness, Robinson was too self-aware to live up to that standard. But still, if he's in today's NBA, he's probably regarded as an above average compe or.
The redeeming thing for a Robinson fan such as myself is that as advanced stats become better and better, Robinson's legend continues to grow. From RAPM to APM to WS48 to even PER, Robinson grades out as one of the very best regular season players ever ... like in the top five. And if we knew in 1999 what we know now in terms of what wins basketball games, Duncan and Robinson would have been given equal billing. Robinson had the higher PER and WS48 in the regular season and tied Duncan in WS48 in the postseason. Robinson wasn't still in his prime in 1999 but he was probably still a top 5-7 player.
I think one of the most incredible visuals from the Dream team video archives is watching David play. As amazing as MJ is/was I think you can make a very good case that on a team with a near prime MJ, Pippen, Ewing, Chuck Stocton, Drexler that David was THE BEST ATHLETE of the bunch. Guy could change ends like a gazelle, had good hops and was strong despite his slender muscular frame. His body fat% had to be miniscule ... but I just dont think if ever had that killer instinct. it may have taken James a while but I think he has developed it. David never had to because duncan had that fire for him and led him there. I do think many here diminish David's contributions to the 1st 2 les to prop up Timmy which is so unfair. sure duncan was the leader on offense but David defended Shaq and any other big while duncan played the help defender role. That is not a knock and was a great strategy by Pop but David gets little credit for the Duncan's first two les when you can argue he played a defensive role similar to Pippen and offensive one similar to Pau Gasol.
MY bad it was not the Schick but the IBM award and David has won the most which will never be broken since they no longer give that award ... he won in Holds record for most IBM Awards (1990, '91, '94, '95, '96)
And he won them during MJ's Ewing, Chuck's and Malone's prime. Of course he is not a better player than MJ (which is part of why I hate dislike those that use advanced metrics to decide debates) but the guy was impressive.
It really is sad that Spurs fans who probably never even watched David Robinson play had to chime in on these ty takes.
You know what happened to Hakeem when he had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He averaged 18.5ppg on 44% shooting in the playoffs.
You know what happened when Kareem had a bad supporting cast in his prime? He avearaged 22.8ppg on 43% shooting.
You know what happened when Shaq had a bad supporting cast in his prime? Oh wait, that never happened, but when the opposition decides to zone in on Shaq and stop him, he averaged 21.5ppg in an entire series.
Give me one single big man who has been successful with no outside help? Can't? I couldn't either, because none existed.
And the comment on Rodman, he went off pretty bad in his last years in Detroit after Daly left, he went nuts in Dallas and LA. People attribute him being under control in Detroit and Chicago because of Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan despite the fact that Rodman credited Daly and Jackson in his teary HoF speech for understanding him and reaching out to him. Who do you have in San Antonio? You have Bob Hill, one of the worst coaches to ever win 60+ games in a season.
Speaking of which, the Spurs over achieved with those 55/60 win seasons. You look at that supporting cast, it has no business finishing with a top 6 seed in those stacked Western conferences.
You know what happened when Kobe had that supporting cast? He either missed the playoffs, or averaged 22 ppg and got bounced in the first round and went nuclear on management.
You know what happened when Hakeem had a similar (but better) supporting cast? He missed the playoffs (his injury also had something to do with it), became a gigantic drama queen, or averaged 18.5 ppg and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
You know what Michael Jordan did with a supporting cast like that? He got bounced in the playoffs after leading his team to 40-45 wins a season (still phenomenal individually though, that's why he's GOAT).
The only one I can think of who did well both team-wise and individually in the playoffs with a supporting cast of that quality is Lebron James, and that's in a historically weak Eastern Conference, and Lebron has GOAT potential.
Learn your history before you open your goddamn mouth and sound like a bloody idiot.
Oh, and to answer the original question, Kobe's was more impressive. While I am not a fan of chucking, Kobe didn't have much of a choice back then. It was either chuck, or let Smush Parker brick a wide open 18 footer.
Like I have said repeatedly when Tim or Kobe is not the subject Amb is one of the best posters on here ...
That being said, I agree some of the Spur possters on here are some of the most dismissive of their own franchise's history. People upstairs on Parker not sure eaxectly why ... maybe because he stole one of Tim's Finals MVp's, or banged Berry's wife or because they worship at the church of Manu ... but the hate he gets from Spur fans (Pop too is crazy) .
Also when Spur fans on here actually rank Shaq over Tim (they should no better) that drives me crazier when they put Duncan over Kobe (because like I said to me it's close no matter which way you lean). How can a big that won just as many les as Shaq without a Kobe or Wade at his side (though David, and later Tony and Manu are no slouches) not be considered the greater player? a 2000 peak SHAq s on everybody (Kobe included) since MJ (and maybe Lebron this year) ... but how often was Shaq at that peak?! 2000, the 2001 playoffs and 2002 Finals that is it. Duncan maintained his elite level of play far more consistently than O'neal but there are Spur fans that will accept Shaq's ranking over Tim. I lived in L.A. and I dont see it. OF course it is close ... but I take duncan. I think Shaq/Kobe/Duncan is close too ... but I go:
1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
oh and as great as David was in the regular season ... and he was plenty good by any measure and one of the most efficient players in NBA history ... those playoffs and Olympics failures (pre-dream team) has tarnished a great legacy .... Barkley's and Olajawon's career signature moments come at David's expense unfortunately ...
I think Ewing suffers the same ... the Pippen and MJ dunks diminishes him as well ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-13-2013 at 10:47 AM.
I don't think Dunks can diminish a player. It was Patrick's lack of success that hurts his career.
KK81, you are not baiting me into this one again.
LOL Im not bating you amb, I told you we will have a real long, well reasoned debate on this once they are both done. WE both have made our cases so no need to re-hash it AGAIN. Nothing has changed since we had our last real debate on the matter (these small ones lately dont count).
IF Kobe misses the playoffs or Duncan makes Finals then we can revisit prior to their retirement ... but middling seasons for both while the King Lebron James reigns should not change the score for either.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-13-2013 at 10:30 AM.
You can say what you want ... for intelligent not easily swayed by ESPN fans I agree with you.
But if you were to ask general, non Knick or Spur fans what the FIRST image is of Ewing/Robinson I bet at least 80% will say Pippens nuts on Ewing and MJ Dunking and staring first. When the first image of a great player is another great player embarassing them ...that has an effect. Robinson was a great player too and sure his playoff lack of success was a huge part of the perception but the highlights of Olajawon using his post moves on David show far more often than the graceful finishes by Robinsion ...and I think it is the reason Olajawon is a bit overrated and David underrated.
Think about it most NBA playoffs/Finals montages include those plays. ...That's just the way it is. Isiah is one of the best PG's I have ever seen and is woefully underrated imho ... and I think part of it is his most played NBA highlight is .... "and Bird steals it". that is great for Bird but sucks for Thomas.
Before that play his machine gun dribble (aginst the Knicks?!) was the highlight ... I remember being showed the most. Heck for some (me included) the memory of the sore ankle game in the Finals (in a loss) helps erase some if not ALL of the Bird play tbh ... but I just THINK that the image of him choking agaist the Celts works against him ...because you see that play anywhere from 4 to 7 times EVERY June ....
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-13-2013 at 10:32 AM.
9 + 20 + 21 = 50
class
Yeah. I can see your point. In hindsight those are some lasting memories of Ewing's career and its unfortunate because he was a bad man. Sports fans in general are some of the worst fanatics and they absolutely take pleasure in being revisionist and illogical.
Oh and Isiah's machine gun dribble highlight may have been against the Hawks if not the Knicks ... (doing it from memory)
Last edited by Killakobe81; 02-13-2013 at 10:48 AM.
Couldn't have said it better!
Oh yeah, Kobe!
06/07 kobes prime my ass, dude was nothing more than a 1man team shooting for the record books
might as well compared his team with other 1man teams over the history of the nba
Ewing, to me, has been pretty overrated over the years, and let me first say where I think the public ranks him – right alongside David Robinson.
However ...
From a statistical perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing.
From an awards perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing (MVP, DPoY, All-NBA, All D)
From a H2H perspective, Robinson destroys Ewing.
In terms of team accomplishments, Ewing got to the finals in a weak Eastern conference with a team that is about 20 times more loaded than anything Robinson ever had before Tim Duncan came along. Oakley, John Starks, then later on Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, these are all players who are better than Robinson had in his prime (Elliott, Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman – SA version).
Ewing did poorly in the H2H with Hakeem in the 94 Finals, he averaged 18.9 ppg on 36% shooting, and that is with a totally stacked team, and shooters like Starks and Hubert Davis playing next to him.
Ewing should be ranked way below Robinson, Barkley, and should be ranked alongside that overrated pedophile in terms of overall players.
Nothing gives ambchang uterine cramps quite like denigrating his bible-thumping, playoff-choking hero
probably Bryant ...... James is still gangsta though .....
Dude was treating this thread like Game 7 writing an essayNothing gives ambchang uterine cramps quite like denigrating his bible-thumping, playoff-choking hero
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