Also it's part of what makes Kirby so overrated, as quotes like these feed into that got's hype machine...
I'll give him that, Kobe has made some of the most amazing shots with several people guarding him. The one golden rule I've noticed from watching Kobe is this: if he stands in a spot for more than 5 seconds without being forced to move by the defender or getting any pressure from the defender, he has a 99.9% chance of making the shot, no matter where he is on the court.
Perhaps. But being a little doesn't take away from a player's greatness nor does it mean people should hate on his play on the court for it. Just like Jordan having a gambling addiction that killed his father shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Magic having unprotected sex with gay men shouldn't take away from his greatness. Or Tim rocking a tramp stamp while playing dungeons and dragons shouldn't take away from his greatness.
It's amusing how bitter some spurfans get over any Duncan-slight or Kobe-praise
Or that the tramp stamp F'd the Pisstons in 05...
lol that Kobe and the Lakers were losing that game when he pulled off that circus lefty three. Story of Kobe's life.
Hey, you bro.
srslytho, your general theme was, "why do people always tend towards wanting to take away from Kobe's greatness at any possible time?" Now that he's fallen into mediocrity I don't really GAF, but yeah I think that answers your question. I would say Kobe is the most divisive player in NBA history, in fact. In my experience most "respect" his scoring ability but hate his at ude. Plus, he's a snitch who ran Shaq outta town. We're talking an arguable top 5 POAT still near his prime in Shaq.
I know I have the reputation as the biggest Kobe hater on here, but I don't place Duncan over him all-time out of any kind of homerism or "hate." Simply put, the facts work in Duncan's favor in this particular player comparison.
Duncan was the lead dog on 4 championship teams, winning 3 Finals MVPs. Kobe was the lead dog on 2 championship team, winning 2 Finals MVPs.
Duncan has two of the top best statistical Finals performances of all-time. Kobe has not placed on that list.
Duncan is the better statistical performer in the playoffs than Kobe. Hate PER all you want, but it's a much better metric than arbitrarily comparing per game stats. And if we want to go down the road of comparing per game stats, Duncan wins more categories.
While Kobe was a solid perimeter defender, Duncan is one of the best interior defenders/paint anchors of all-time, and arguably the best defender of his generation (can make an argument for Garnett).
Some quotes from one of the best articles examining the debate:
"There really isn’t any diplomatic way to this: Tim Duncan’s playoff performances essentially run circles over Kobe Bryant’s. Indeed, the Big Fundamental has five postseason performances that surpass Kobe Bryant’s best playoff run (2001-02, 2005-06, 2002-03, 2006-07, 2008-09) and also several other notable playoff performances. It’s not by accident that fans and people in the media shower Duncan with praise and peg him as the best power forward of all time; he has had an exceptional career."
“Kobe Bryant has been known to shut down his opponent whereas Tim Duncan was known to shut down entire offenses by himself”. Indeed, Duncan’s productivity as well as his efficiency have made the Spurs team a championship contender throughout his tenure in San Antonio while the same cannot be said about Bryant.
http://www.warriorsworld.net/2011/02...-debate-close/
And every time Kobe/Lakers fans are presented with these facts, rather than try to have substantial debate, they default to their 5>4, 81 points, Kobe owns Duncan in the playoffs (which he doesn't) shtick, because they know they lack a sufficient enough counterargument to really challenge the notion that Duncan is the better all-time player.
That said, Kobe definitely has more left in the tank than Duncan, and I can honestly see Kobe playing at a star level until 38. If he manages to impress with a good playoff performance and another Finals MVP in the coming years, I'll concede Kobe as the better player. But currently, I just don't believe Kobe has enough factual ammunition to definitively place him over Duncan.
Ben Wallace is the best defender of Duncan's generation. He doesn't have the longevity of playing at his level as Duncan or KG, but his 5-6 seasons of great defensive play still overshadows what Duncan and KG did in their careers defensively. And that's even with acknowledging how great those two players were defensively.
I'm a die hard life long Spurs fan, but I'd put Kobe over Timmy by the slightest of margins.
Kobe deserves a of a lot of criticism, especially for off the court things. I don't think I really argue when people bash on him for off the court things. And even basketball related, he deserves criticism for chucking, his inability to lead a team to any type of success without a great supporting casty, and for alienating teammates. But there are posters on these boards that discredit him for his play way more than they should. Talk about him maybe not even being even a top 25 player, much less anywhere close to being a top 10 player all time. Discredit him for les he won as a sidekick even though it's never done to Kareem, Magic, Bird, or even Shaq in 2006.Hey, you bro.
srslytho, your general theme was, "why do people always tend towards wanting to take away from Kobe's greatness at any possible time?" Now that he's fallen into mediocrity I don't really GAF, but yeah I think that answers your question. I would say Kobe is the most divisive player in NBA history, in fact. In my experience most "respect" his scoring ability but hate his at ude. Plus, he's a snitch who ran Shaq outta town. We're talking an arguable top 5 POAT still near his prime in Shaq.
I don't think Kobe is a sure-fire top 10 player all time. I think he's borderline. Arguments can be made that he's anywhere in the maybe 8-15 range depending what your criteria for such lists are. I don't think he's had a better career than either Shaq or Duncan. I don't think he's been the best player in the league over LeBron in probably 4-5 years. But the way he does get criticized on these boards often do go to extremes in trying to put him down. Shaq was the best player in the league up until around 2002 or so, then Duncan for a couple years, and then maybe Kobe for a couple seasons, before LeBron took over. But there are people who will argue Kobe was never even in the discussion of being the best player in the league... like ever.
Make fun of him being a snitch and a rapist. I make fun of that too. No problem with it. Call him a chucker. No issue with that either. Being a horrible teammate and an egomaniac. I won't argue. When people obsess about Kobe not even being very good, it gets ridiculous. And Dirk isn't the only player or coach who has given Kobe high if not ultimate praise as a great player. And it's not silly for those players and coaches to do so. For a while, maybe only a short while, Kobe ruled the NBA. Around 2007 and 2008, Kobe was the best player in the league. And at least on an individual level, his level of play has been so great for so long. He was probably a top 5 player in the league for a good decade. But give him any amount of praise for his play on the court, and you're a Kobe fanboi. Kobe haters are basically the polar opposites of those true Kobe fanbois.
I considered saying Wallace, but I disagree that Wallace's 5-6 seasons overshadow the 12+ plus seasons those two players have maintained their elite defensive level.
But I have no problem with anyone ranking Wallace over Duncan.
4 DPOYs in that 5-6 year span. And all were legit. There is also stastistical evidence to support it. One of the rare high rebounding, high shot blocking, plus high steals big men of all time, on the same level as Hakeem. Was maybe the only big man to not only defend Shaq one-on-one in Shaq's prime, but do so well despite giving up 3-4 inches and close to 100 pounds. Would take a charge just as easily as he would block a shot. Played passing lanes like a wing, could defend the post, and play help side defense all equally well. Would switch onto perimeter players in pick-and-roll situations and stay in front of them. He was the ultimate defender in his 5-6 year stretch of great play.
And I know it's hypothetically speaking, but his stretch of seasons would have been closer to 9-10 years had he been given a chance before the Pistons in 2000. But his offense was so atrociously bad, he didn't get that chance until he was already 25 or 26, which cut his ability to string together a longer stretch of defensive greatness. But again, ifs and buts.
You're more level headed than the lot of us, Jam.
You're conscientious enough to just ignore the massive hype and myth that surrounds Kobe, as well as the innumerable proclamations by his fanboys of his incalculable greatness, and just let people be en led to their stupid opinions, because you know how fruitless it would be to try to change an unwilling mind that is steeped in such deep fanaticism it borders on the psychotic.
For whatever reason, I'm compelled to challenge their mindset, which quite often manifests itself in the kind of "hate" you describe (never crediting Kobe for anything). I think it's because the only suitable counter to the fanboy's overblown hyping of Kobe is overblown hate, since many of them are never interested in having a thoughtful debate about Kobe's actual status as an NBA great (top 8-12 all-time) rather than the myth they've built for him (GOAT or 2nd greatest of all-time).
And I guess Spurs fans will always baited into such since the Duncan vs. Kobe debate has raged on since about '06.
That's probably your best and most thoughtful explanation about the Kobe debate and your posting regarding Kobe you've ever given.
I'll give you props for that. But I'm sure it won't be the last time I challenge your opinion or posts about Kobe.
Even worse reading comprehension. He said "over the last 15 years". Lebron was still sucking his thumb when Kobe started.
Players know the difference between a PF and a SG. They often won't compare them in the nebulous ways we do.
please purposefully exclude Kool...you have no idea my brother
You'd be a fool. No way Kobe gets any of the Spurs teams to a Finals. Wouldn't happen. Imagine Tim on the Lakers now instead of Kobe. They are in the playoffs because Tim lets Steve run the show, and gets the ball inside to Howard when he can. No ego, just skill, like an old well oiled piece of machinery churning out results year after year. Kobe isn't just a body with skills, and you cannot separate his ego and at ude from his game and pretend they are two different things. You buy one, you get the other, and that combination is problematic when he doesn't have the ability to do what he thinks he can do. Sure he could go off when no one was guarding him back in the Shaq days, but he was playing with the most powerful bigman of all time in my opinion, and Shaq could have scored 50 a game if they got him the ball more often. Kobe did more harm to that team than good imo. There's no reason that team shouldn't have gone 4 or 5 in a row.
Sorry, all the pla udes are great, but it's bull .
He's talking about females.please purposefully exclude Kool...you have no idea my brother
Contrary to what many might believe here, I didn't hate or even dislike Kobe during the 3 peat. Any Spurfan will tell you that Shaq was the numero uno villain in those days. We hated the guy. Mainly because of his arrogance, trash-talking, and the like, but also because Lakers fans worshiped the guy and hyped him up in a similar way they now do Kobe (why I find it funny how they on him now for the purpose of propping up Kobe).
Some will say it was the '04 rape/snitch business that soured them on Kobe. But for me, it was '06, and the media fest that ensued after his 81 point game, with the comparisons to Jordan, Mark Jackson saying he's the greatest ever, etc, etc. I simply tired of the hype (a hype that continues to this day) and responded with hate/trolling.
I appreciate Kobe as a player. I think he's a top 10 great, but he is still massively, massively overrated. And when his fans come in here talking their bull , I typically can't help myself in countering their hype with some hate.
Since Magic started hatin on Kobe I have no desire to defend his legacy....plus the butter on his movie Theater popcorn just ain't right...
Bend over, I'll butter your in' popcorn.
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