Mavs: Dirk: "Kobe the best player in the last 15 years, Duncan the best PF ever."

[midnightpulp]

Wait... So now average stats count?

WTF

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts. Head-to-head RECORD is a team achievement. If you want to take the later position, then Nash owns Kobe in the playoffs.

[midnightpulp]

Nobody said that Shaq never was scoring in the 4th.

Kobe was the leader in points in the 4th quarter of the 2002 NBA playoffs, also 2001 but most of those game did not come down to the wire. In the most important possession of the season, down by 1 with under 30 seconds left in game 7 of the 02 WCF, guess who had the ball?

The best perimeter player on the team will usually have the ball in those situations. Manu had the ball plenty of times in down to the wire situations during the 05 and 07 runs. Doesn't make him "1b". Also, the Lakers went through Shaq in OT in that game 7. He had 6 points in the period compared to Kobe's 2, which came as a result of intentional foul freethrows.

But continue to reduce everything down to "moments" because you don't like how the overall statistical picture illustrates that Shaq was the better clutch player in those days.

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan isnt the best power forward of all time because Duncan is a forward in name only. He looks and plays like a center. I dont care what the Spurs list him at to appease his ego. What does he do that Centers dont?

Compare him with other centers and he would be...i dont know...top 10?

[da_suns_fan]

Regardless, Durant or Lebron will probably be 1/2 as the greatest forwards of all time when theyre done.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan isnt the best power forward of all time because Duncan is a forward in name only. He looks and plays like a center. I dont care what the Spurs list him at to appease his ego. What does he do that Centers dont?

Compare him with other centers and he would be...i dont know...top 10?

Doesn't matter what position he's listed as or what position he actually plays. Ultimately, Duncan is a top 10 great regardless of whether you consider him a PF or C.

[Clipper Nation]

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts.

Huh? By that logic, Deron Fatass Williams is better than CP3 on the virtue of him only showing up in games against Paul's teams, tbh.... that also fails to account for one player having a better supporting cast than the other...

[da_suns_fan]

Doesn't matter what position he's listed as or what position he actually plays. Ultimately, Duncan is a top 10 great regardless of whether you consider him a PF or C.

1) Jordan
2) Russell
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Kareem
6) Shaq
7) Chamberlin
8) Kobe
9) Hakeem Olajuwon


Duncan would have a shot at 10th (along with Oscar, Elgin, Jerry West, Irving etc)

[midnightpulp]

Huh? By that logic, Deron Fatass Williams is better than CP3 on the virtue of him only showing up in games against Paul's teams, tbh.... that also fails to account for one player having a better supporting cast than the other...

What I meant by that is if someone is going to make a statement of: X player owns Y player head-to-head, then the two player's respective stats when they played each other should be the primary measurement and not head-to-head record. Based on head-to-head playoff record, Paul Pierce "owned" Lebron heads up before last season.

As for the D-Will, Chris Paul comparison. They never matched up in the playoffs, so you can't really determine who owns who in that matchup. Yeah, Deron has gotten the best of Paul in the regular season, having a 14-4 win advantage and slightly better stats, but who gives a about the regular season. If Deron was on the Warriors or something and they faced the Clips in the playoffs, I'd bet you Paul would dominate him.

[TheRealCB]

So I've had Deron's number since then, and we were texting sometimes. And he knew I wanted him to come here. We talked when it was all in the process. I didn't fly up on July 1. I wanted him to come. Cubes had to film freaking Shark Tank. I just watched that for the first time the other night.
I still didn't. I still refuse to watch it.
It was actually not bad.
I haven't seen one episode and I probably won't ever see one.



Dirk being bitter at Cuban

[Deuce Bigalow]

The best perimeter player on the team will usually have the ball in those situations. Manu had the ball plenty of times in down to the wire situations during the 05 and 07 runs. Doesn't make him "1b". Also, the Lakers went through Shaq in OT in that game 7. He had 6 points in the period compared to Kobe's 2, which came as a result of intentional foul freethrows.

But continue to reduce everything down to "moments" because you don't like how the overall statistical picture illustrates that Shaq was the better clutch player in those days.

You just love being delusional.

2001 NBA playoffs series by series

25/5/8 on 48FG
35/9/4 on 47FG
33/7/7 on 51FG
25/8/6 on 42FG

average: 29/7/6 on 47FG/56TS

But keep on living in your little world thinking Manu and Pippen were 01 Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

In player vs. player debates, head-to-head stats should be the ONLY thing that counts. Head-to-head RECORD is a team achievement. If you want to take the later position, then Nash owns Kobe in the playoffs.

What were the 4th quarter stats?

All I know is that Kobe was the better player. If you compare Wade and Dirk in the 2011 Finals you would think that Wade was better by the numbers but if you have seen the 4th quarters you would think otherwise.

Here we're the 4th quarter numbers in games the were CLOSE:

2001 Western Conference Finals


Game 2
4th Quarter: Spurs up 67-66


Kobe Bryant: 9 points, 3-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 2-6 FG, 2-2 FT.....Hits meaningless 3 at the end, so in reality he had 4 points on 1-5 FG when it counted.


Lakers win 88-81


Lakers won the series 4-0


2002 Western Conference Semifinals


Game 3
4th Quarter: Lakers up 74-71


Kobe Bryant: 11 points, 5-5 FG, 1-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 9 points, 4-9 FG
Shaquille O'Neal: 0 points, 0-4 FG


Lakers win 99-89


Game 4
4th Quarter: Spurs up 75-67


Kobe Bryant: 12 points, 3-6 FG, 4-6 FT, Hit game-winner
ENTIRE SPURS TEAM: 10 points
Tim Duncan: 3 points, 0-2 FG, 3-7 FT


Lakers win 87-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 62-61


Kobe Bryant: 10 points, 4-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 5 points, 2-5 FG, 1-1 FT


Lakers won 93-87


Lakers won the series 4-1


2008 Western Conference Finals


Game 1
4th Quarter: Spurs up 72-65


Kobe Bryant: 14 points, 6-8 FG, 2-2 FT, Hit FG to give LA 87-85 lead with 23.9 sec
Tim Duncan: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-5 FT


Lakers win 89-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 67-63


Kobe: 17 points, 6-10 FG, 4-4 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 1-4 FG, 4-6 FT


Lakers win 100-92


Lakers win the series 4-1

[Deuce Bigalow]

In that 08 WCF game 1 Kobe outscored the Spurs by himself in the last quarter and a half.

[midnightpulp]

What were the 4th quarter stats?

All I know is that Kobe was the better player. If you compare Wade and Dirk in the 2011 Finals you would think that Wade was better by the numbers but if you have seen the 4th quarters you would think otherwise.

Here we're the 4th quarter numbers in games the were CLOSE:

2001 Western Conference Finals


Game 2
4th Quarter: Spurs up 67-66


Kobe Bryant: 9 points, 3-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 2-6 FG, 2-2 FT.....Hits meaningless 3 at the end, so in reality he had 4 points on 1-5 FG when it counted.


Lakers win 88-81


Lakers won the series 4-0


2002 Western Conference Semifinals


Game 3
4th Quarter: Lakers up 74-71


Kobe Bryant: 11 points, 5-5 FG, 1-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 9 points, 4-9 FG
Shaquille O'Neal: 0 points, 0-4 FG


Lakers win 99-89


Game 4
4th Quarter: Spurs up 75-67


Kobe Bryant: 12 points, 3-6 FG, 4-6 FT, Hit game-winner
ENTIRE SPURS TEAM: 10 points
Tim Duncan: 3 points, 0-2 FG, 3-7 FT


Lakers win 87-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 62-61


Kobe Bryant: 10 points, 4-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 5 points, 2-5 FG, 1-1 FT


Lakers won 93-87


Lakers won the series 4-1


2008 Western Conference Finals


Game 1
4th Quarter: Spurs up 72-65


Kobe Bryant: 14 points, 6-8 FG, 2-2 FT, Hit FG to give LA 87-85 lead with 23.9 sec
Tim Duncan: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-5 FT


Lakers win 89-85


Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 67-63


Kobe: 17 points, 6-10 FG, 4-4 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 1-4 FG, 4-6 FT


Lakers win 100-92


Lakers win the series 4-1

Classic Deuce deflection. Only focusing on the 4th quarter in games the Lakers won.

Does your idiot brain allow you consider and examine events beyond "moments?"

Here's 8 quarters of Tim Duncan vs. Kobe in road closeout games in series' the Spurs won:

35ppg, 15rpg, 4apg, 1.5blk, .692FG

vs.

18ppg, 3.5rpg, 3apg, 5TO (), .457FG

[lcastro]

Dirk is right, Kobe is so far still the best player in the last 15 years. Yeah Lebron has had amazing stats and continues to do so, but would you rather have rings or record stats? Lebron has some time before he gets put in front of Kobe. As for Timmy D, he is the best power forward to play the game, no doubt about that! Dirk though is among the great power forwards, glad he got a ring to add to his profile.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Classic Deuce deflection. Only focusing on the 4th quarter in games the Lakers won.

Does your idiot brain allow you consider and examine events beyond "moments?"

Here's 8 quarters of Tim Duncan vs. Kobe in road closeout games in series' the Spurs won:

35ppg, 15rpg, 4apg, 1.5blk, .692FG

vs.

18ppg, 3.5rpg, 3apg, 5TO (), .457FG

WTF??

"moments"

ing idiot

[midnightpulp]

WTF??

"moments"

ing idiot

The 4th quarter is a moment. It is only 25% of an entire game.

What don't you "get?"

"But the 4th quarter is when IT COUNTS, cause ESPN told me so."

Bull . The Clippers beat the Rockets last night because they dropped 46 on them in the 1st.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah, you shook.

[ambchang]

You know. I once saw a game in which mengke bateer scored like 2 points vs. shaq, and shaq in the next possession shaq didn't score.

Based on that span of 30 seconds, I cans deduce bateer > shaq. I don't look at things like career stats and overall numbers. All that matters is that short cherry picked moment that supports me.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, you shook.

Nice evasion because you have no rebuttal.

"A player who shoots 0-20 for 3 quarters but scores 15 points in the 4th on 5-5 shooting had the better game than the player who went 15 for 15 through 3 quarters but only scored 3 points on 1-4 shooting in the 4th."

- Deuce logic.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nice evasion because you have no rebuttal.

"A player who shoots 0-20 for 3 quarters but scores 15 points in the 4th on 5-5 shooting had the better game than the player who went 15 for 15 through 3 quarters but only scored 3 points on 1-4 shooting in the 4th."

- Deuce logic.

Making up stuff that I never said

signs of getting shook son

[Deuce Bigalow]

You know. I once saw a game in which mengke bateer scored like 2 points vs. shaq, and shaq in the next possession shaq didn't score.

Based on that span of 30 seconds, I cans deduce bateer > shaq. I don't look at things like career stats and overall numbers. All that matters is that short cherry picked moment that supports me.

A 12 minute span of the 4th quarter of a close game matters. I wouldn't expect you to know this though.

[midnightpulp]

A 12 minute span of the 4th quarter of a close game matters. I wouldn't expect you to know this though.

So does the 12 minute span of the 1st quarter and the 2nd and the 3rd.

Did the Lakers win this game in the 4th:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...805270SAS.html

Or this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...y=13&year=2004

And I can post DOZENS more.

This is why placing more importance on 4th quarters than the other 3 quarters is in' stupid. Games aren't won in the 4th. They are simply more memorable. Not more important.

[Deuce Bigalow]

So does the 12 minute span of the 1st quarter and the 2nd and the 3rd.

Did the Lakers win this game in the 4th:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...805270SAS.html

Or this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...y=13&year=2004

And I can post DOZENS more.

This is why placing more importance on 4th quarters than the other 3 quarters is in' stupid. Games aren't won in the 4th. They are simply more memorable. Not more important.

IF THE GAME IS CLOSE

[midnightpulp]

Making up stuff that I never said

signs of getting shook son

That's the essence of your argument: 4th quarter stats>all.

Um, guards who are the best freethrow shooters on their team will typically have good 4th quarters in close games their team won because a lot of their scoring comes from intentional fouls. By whittling down a comparison between a big and a perimeter player in that regard is disingenuous. I don't feel like researching the stats, but I'm sure Manu scored more than Duncan in the 4th in close games through '05 until now.

Just post the overall stats from those games. Kobe outperformed Duncan overall anyway in the majority of the games you referenced, so choosing to focus on only the 4th is superfluous.

[midnightpulp]

IF THE GAME IS CLOSE

WHY IS THE GAME CLOSE?

Because of the events that preceded it.

Is it fair to punish a player who had an extraordinary 3 quarters that kept his team close but may have faded in the 4th and exalt his opponent who had a ty 3 quarters but played well in the 4th?

And I'm not just referring to Kobe/Duncan here. I've seen Kobe in similar situations as well, especially during 06 and 07 when he was tasked with the majority scoring load. Brilliant for 3 quarters but mediocre in the 4th.

The 4th quarter is not an isolated event separate from the rest of the game.