NBA: James Harden - where do you currently rank him?

[TDMVPDPOY]

And look what Kobe has done in recent weeks, not shooting as much, passing the ball more. Kobe actually has given in, even though based on how he started the season, he had every right to continue taking as many shots as he was. My guess is Dwight will still complain about something.

you actually believe the rapists gave in by deferring alot? dude was only interested chasing beating jordans assists record.....

[JamStone]

Another possible comparison for Harden could be Joe Johnson. Harden is putting up similar numbers to what Joe Johnson put up his second season in Atlanta. But Atlanta was a bad team the first few seasons Johnson was there. But there are similarities. Joe Johnson was/is a do-it-all SG who had size and strength on most SGs, could handle and facilitate like a PG, and was a legitimate three point threat. Joe Johnson went from underrated to overrated in his tenure with the Hawks. And aside from that one series against Boston in 2008 where he was clutch late in a couple games (plus the Hawks still lost the series), he didn't prove his worth as a legit franchise player in the playoffs. If Harden doesn't make waves in the playoffs in the next couple seasons, he could end up being similar to that.

Also, with respect to how he makes the Rockets better as a team, it's interesting to note that the past 3 seasons, the Rockets have finished the season over .500 and ended up being the 9th place team in the Western Conference, each of the past 3 seasons. Right now the Rockets are slotted as the 8th seed and are 4 games above .500. It's not like he's transformed the Rockets from a 20 win lottery team to a top 4 team in the West. They're still a slightly above average, low playoff seed team. So I think rushing to give him too much praise would be premature at this point. Let's see them finish strong, make the playoffs, and actually do something in the playoffs with Harden performing at a high level first.

[TDMVPDPOY]

JamStone

you actually comparing harden to that scrub joe johnson? cmon man...

[DAF86]

It tells me Dwight should stop being a about touches. Again, 2009-2010, he averaged the same exact amount of field goal attempts. Orlando made it to the ECF, Dwight finisheded 4th in MVP voting. But he didn't have a Kobe on his team to blame for his lack of touches. He's only down 3 shot attempts from the past two seasons. Joining a team like the Lakers with a player like Kobe, should he have expected his shot attempts to go up? He ed in Orlando and with Van Gundy. Now, he's doing it again with Kobe and D'Antoni. It's more of an M.O. than a legitimate basketball strategic complaint.

And look what Kobe has done in recent weeks, not shooting as much, passing the ball more. Kobe actually has given in, even though based on how he started the season, he had every right to continue taking as many shots as he was. My guess is Dwight will still complain about something.

Dwight still misses free throws. He still lacks work ethic and professionalism. He still whines to the media. It's time for him to just shut up, work hard, and play. Kobe for all his faults--and he has many--is not to be blamed for whatever struggles Dwight has had this season. That's as much of a cop out as people have criticized Kobe for any number of things, probably more of a cop out.

Shot attempts don't tell the whole story, usage rate is more indicative of how much a guy is involved on offense. In 2009/2010 he had a USG of 21.5 compared to 19.8 this year. Chris Bosh playing alongside Lebron and Wade has a higher USG, that's just not right.

I have already conceded that he should just shut up but are you saying that if he did that he would have better numbers and the Lakers would win more games? Instead of averaging 58% from the field he would average 65%? Instead of getting 12 rbds and 2.3 blks per game he would get 15 and 4? I don't get it. The truth is that it's highly unlikely for that to be the case. Maybe he would improve a little but not that much to make a difference about the way people think about him right now, the easiest/surest way to change that and maybe the Lakers' entire season is for him to get more involved on offense.

[JamStone]

2006-07 Joe Johnson: 25.0 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 4.4 APG, .471 FG, .381 3P

Back then and the following few seasons, people started making threads on here asking how Joe Johnson compared to guys like Ginobili and Wade and at the time Brandon Roy. He was thought of as a top 5 SG by some. And after that Boston series in 2008, he was also viewed as a clutch playoff performer. Harden actually does have a similar game to Joe Johnson talent wise.

Now what I said is that depending on whether Harden can perform at a high level in the playoffs or whether he fades in the years to come, he may be comparable to what Joe Johnson is or has been. Time will tell.

[DAF86]

Another possible comparison for Harden could be Joe Johnson. Harden is putting up similar numbers to what Joe Johnson put up his second season in Atlanta. But Atlanta was a bad team the first few seasons Johnson was there. But there are similarities. Joe Johnson was/is a do-it-all SG who had size and strength on most SGs, could handle and facilitate like a PG, and was a legitimate three point threat. Joe Johnson went from underrated to overrated in his tenure with the Hawks. And aside from that one series against Boston in 2008 where he was clutch late in a couple games (plus the Hawks still lost the series), he didn't prove his worth as a legit franchise player in the playoffs. If Harden doesn't make waves in the playoffs in the next couple seasons, he could end up being similar to that.

Also, with respect to how he makes the Rockets better as a team, it's interesting to note that the past 3 seasons, the Rockets have finished the season over .500 and ended up being the 9th place team in the Western Conference, each of the past 3 seasons. Right now the Rockets are slotted as the 8th seed and are 4 games above .500. It's not like he's transformed the Rockets from a 20 win lottery team to a top 4 team in the West. They're still a slightly above average, low playoff seed team. So I think rushing to give him too much praise would be premature at this point. Let's see them finish strong, make the playoffs, and actually do something in the playoffs with Harden performing at a high level first.

Are you comparing iso Joe to a pick and roll master like Harden?

Harden >> Johnson

Pick and roll >>>>>> isos

That makes Harden >>>>>>>> Johnson

[GoodOdor]

We all agree that Harden>>Ginobili(prime, not current?).

[JamStone]

Shot attempts don't tell the whole story, usage rate is more indicative of how much a guy is involved on offense. In 2009/2010 he had a USG of 21.5 compared to 19.8 this year. Chris Bosh playing alongside Lebron and Wade has a higher USG, that's just not right.

I have already conceded that he should just shut up but are you saying that if he did that he would have better numbers and the Lakers would win more games? Instead of averaging 58% from the field he would average 65%? Instead of getting 12 rbds and 2.3 blks per game he would get 15 and 4? I don't get it. The truth is that it's highly unlikely for that to be the case. Maybe he would improve a little but not that much to make a difference about the way people think about him right now, the easiest/surest way to change that and maybe the Lakers' entire season is for him to get more involved on offense.

I'm not saying if he shut up he'd put up better numbers. I'm saying he shouldn't worry about the amount of touches he gets or his individual stats. He should worry about winning. But getting Howard more involved in the offense doesn't guarantee more wins at all, it only guarantees he'll put up more shots. The Lakers struggles have a lot more to do with their defense than their offense. The Lakers are 8th in the league in offensive rating, 18th in the league in defensive rating. Getting Howard more involved on offense doesn't help their defense... except if that's the only way to get Howard more engaged defensively, which again is more of an indictment to Dwight's infantile at ude and lack of professionalism.

Earlier in the season when the Lakers were losing, Kobe was extremely efficient offensively. It wasn't about Kobe chucking his way into losses. He was actually one of the few bright spots offensively for the Lakers. But also in those earlier stretch of games the Lakers lost in November and December, there were more than a handful of close losses where Dwight Howard missed more than enough free throws that could have been the difference between winning and losing.

I get it. The Kobe hate especially in this forum won't allow any other notion other than it's Kobe's fault. He'll get blamed no matter what. I choose to be the voice of dissent sometimes just to bring some balance to the ST universe. And in this case, I actually firmly believe what I'm saying. Dwight shouldn't blame his struggles on Kobe, and again not on D'Antoni either. He shouldn't worry about his touches or shot attempts. He should just go out and play and play hard and work on improving his game without having any pouting sessions or animosity to teammates. A change in at ude whether his individual numbers improve or not would make a difference in my opinion.

[BatManu20]

Caron Butler ting on Green

[JamStone]

Are you comparing iso Joe to a pick and roll master like Harden?

Harden >> Johnson

Pick and roll >>>>>> isos

That makes Harden >>>>>>>> Johnson

I'm comparing their talent and their production (Johnson's 2006-07 season to Harden's current season), not their style of play. They both have similar talent for the SG position, big and strong for the position, above average handles and playmaking skills for the position, both good outside shooters. And at one point, Joe Johnson was putting up similar production as James Harden is this season. And again, what I said is that Harden's career the next few seasons absent some great post season play and playoff success could go the way of Joe Johnson's career after that 2006-07 season.

[DAF86]

I'm not saying if he shut up he'd put up better numbers. I'm saying he shouldn't worry about the amount of touches he gets or his individual stats. He should worry about winning. But getting Howard more involved in the offense doesn't guarantee more wins at all, it only guarantees he'll put up more shots. The Lakers struggles have a lot more to do with their defense than their offense. The Lakers are 8th in the league in offensive rating, 18th in the league in defensive rating. Getting Howard more involved on offense doesn't help their defense... except if that's the only way to get Howard more engaged defensively, which again is more of an indictment to Dwight's infantile at ude and lack of professionalism.

Earlier in the season when the Lakers were losing, Kobe was extremely efficient offensively. It wasn't about Kobe chucking his way into losses. He was actually one of the few bright spots offensively for the Lakers. But also in those earlier stretch of games the Lakers lost in November and December, there were more than a handful of close losses where Dwight Howard missed more than enough free throws that could have been the difference between winning and losing.

I get it. The Kobe hate especially in this forum won't allow any other notion other than it's Kobe's fault. He'll get blamed no matter what. I choose to be the voice of dissent sometimes just to bring some balance to the ST universe. And in this case, I actually firmly believe what I'm saying. Dwight shouldn't blame his struggles on Kobe, and again not on D'Antoni either. He shouldn't worry about his touches or shot attempts. He should just go out and play and play hard and work on improving his game without having any pouting sessions or animosity to teammates. A change in at ude whether his individual numbers improve or not would make a difference in my opinion.

I don't have the numbers but I heard recently that the Lakers are above average on defense when Dwight is on the court and beyond awful when he's not, maybe the defensive issues aren't Dwight's fault, tbh.

I'm not saying that Dwight's struggless are because of Kobe (besides that troll comment at the beggining), I'm saying that Kobe's chucking ways play a role. You don't even agree with that?

[TDMVPDPOY]

if harden leads the rockets to +50 win and playoff appearance, win or lose first round, will be anything better JJ has ever done with the hawks...

did JJ lead his hawks to 50wins in a pathetic eastern conference?

[JamStone]

I'm saying that Kobe's chucking way play a role. You don't even agree with that?

I don't know if I agree with that or not.

I think Kobe is who he is. He's always been a chucker. Even when they were winning championships, he was a chucker. Is Kobe's chucking one of the main reasons the Lakers have struggled this season? I don't believe so. Is his chucking a reason why Dwight Howard specifically has struggled? I can't say for sure. If he's getting the same amount of touches as he did in Orlando three years ago and only 3 fewer shot attempts than the past two seasons, why is he perceived to be struggling so much this season? I'm sure you can point to several games this season where Kobe shot too much and hurt the Lakers, but I don't think it's as many as you might think. But I don't know for sure. I'd have to go through Kobe's gamelogs. But earlier in the season, as I pointed out earlier, like the first month or so of the season, I found a handful (like maybe 5-6) of close losses that could have been wins if Dwight Howard made more of his free throws.

Statistically, I don't think Dwight Howard is struggling that much. He's just not getting as many touches and shots. And because he's pouted about it and because the Lakers as a team have struggled, it's a point of contention. Dwight thinks he's struggling because he wants to be the man.

But the whole perception of the Lakers and the butting heads between Dwight and Kobe would completely change if two things happened: 1) Dwight would just shut up and play, and 2) the Lakers started to consistently win. To be honest, if the Lakers were say 33-22 and everything else on the season was exactly the same, Dwight's touches and shot attempts, Kobe's chucking, the poor defense, all the injuries, then there wouldn't be any huge problems. Losing frustrates players. If the Lakers were winning and solidly in the playoffs, I don't think we'd be hearing about any of these problems.

[JamStone]

if harden leads the rockets to +50 win and playoff appearance, win or lose first round, will be anything better JJ has ever done with the hawks...

did JJ lead his hawks to 50wins in a pathetic eastern conference?

Yes.

You could have easily looked that up yourself.

[stretch]

Don't you have some posts to delete?

lol post deleter

lol making up to make yourself feel better about being a got

[FkLA]

Isnt there a stat out there that shows the Lakers are terrible when Kobe shoots x-amount of shots? How does that not prove that chucking is detrimental to a team ?

[DAF86]

lol making up to make yourself feel better about being a got

Making up, yeah right

[DAF86]

So, besides being a post deleter stretch is now a lying got. Good to know, tbh.

[The Third Man]

Another possible comparison for Harden could be Joe Johnson. Harden is putting up similar numbers to what Joe Johnson put up his second season in Atlanta. But Atlanta was a bad team the first few seasons Johnson was there. But there are similarities. Joe Johnson was/is a do-it-all SG who had size and strength on most SGs, could handle and facilitate like a PG, and was a legitimate three point threat. Joe Johnson went from underrated to overrated in his tenure with the Hawks. And aside from that one series against Boston in 2008 where he was clutch late in a couple games (plus the Hawks still lost the series), he didn't prove his worth as a legit franchise player in the playoffs. If Harden doesn't make waves in the playoffs in the next couple seasons, he could end up being similar to that.

Also, with respect to how he makes the Rockets better as a team, it's interesting to note that the past 3 seasons, the Rockets have finished the season over .500 and ended up being the 9th place team in the Western Conference, each of the past 3 seasons. Right now the Rockets are slotted as the 8th seed and are 4 games above .500. It's not like he's transformed the Rockets from a 20 win lottery team to a top 4 team in the West. They're still a slightly above average, low playoff seed team. So I think rushing to give him too much praise would be premature at this point. Let's see them finish strong, make the playoffs, and actually do something in the playoffs with Harden performing at a high level first.

Don't forget that coming into the season the Rockets got rid of two productive point guards in Dragic and Lowry, their starting power forward, Scola, and their top reserve small forward in the Chase Budinger trade to Minnesota. The Rockets were looking to tank before they nabbed Harden.

[JRHernandez88]

Second best sg behind kobe right now

[TDMVPDPOY]

joe johnson is a scrub who hides in big games h2h against the leagues top SGS....cmon man his stats are misleading

[sook]

Joe Johnson? Really Jamstone? You have made some good posts but that is just flat out re ed. Johnson was one of the biggest chuckers and stat padders if there was one. I don't think anyone could call Harden that right now, they are completely different players, the Manu comparisons are probably 100 x more accurate than the JJ comparisons. Harden attacks relentlessly, guys like JJ have never done that. Young Dwade is a good comparison too. I like to wait for the rest of the season and more time before making claims. But people don't seem to realize how crappy and scrappy the rockets are, there is a reason they were projected to win 33 games this season.
Did they get the 9th spot the last couple of years? Yea they did, but they also had a better supporting cast than right now. They had Scola/Lowry/Brooks/Drajic and other players they completely lost now.

[Mal]

He aint top 5. Come on. LeBron, Parker, Melo, CP3, Durant. TOP 10- yeah

[stretch]

He aint top 5. Come on. LeBron, Parker, Melo, CP3, Durant. TOP 10- yeah

lol parker top 5

[Latarian Milton]

he's probably a top 5 SG in the league now, and a top 30 overall but im not yet ready to put him in the same line with the likes of bron, dirk, kobe etc... still has a lot to prove and it's only the first season for him to play as the teams #1, he might be another evanascent one-season superstar like 05-06 mike james imho