Taxing the rich

[boutons_deux]

" Until this country starts taxing the out of cap gains and chopping high net worth estates in half every time someone dies, the tax code will be completely ed."

ain't gonna happen. As Warren Buffet said, There Is A Class War, and My Class Won.

There's no way to defeat the VRWC/1%.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

" Until this country starts taxing the out of cap gains and chopping high net worth estates in half every time someone dies, the tax code will be completely ed."

ain't gonna happen. As Warren Buffet said, There Is A Class War, and My Class Won.

There's no way to defeat the VRWC/1%.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, in fact my post implied several times it's not going to happen.

The main point of my post is that all these supposedly bold "tax reform" ideas that don't touch the cap gains or estate tax will accomplish nothing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The marginal rate for the rich didn't matter. We had more tax payers per capita.

In 1965, the standard deduction was the greater of 10% of one's W2 income, or $200 + $100 per exemption. Then exemptions were $600 each. There was very little to figure from here without itemized deductions. There was no earned income credit, child credits, etc. In the end, most wage earners paid taxes.

The 25% point on the tax table is at $6000. 28% at $8k, 36% at $12k, 39% at $14k. It hits 70% $100k. Now in 2012 dollars, these would be 7.29 times greater.

A family of four making $75k in 2012 would pay $4,319 in federal income tax. Less if they have interest deductions, itemize, etc. Now that same $75k is $10,288 in 1965. $10,288 would be taxed at $1,163, or $8,480 in 2012 dollars. Almost double.

A family of four making $45k in 2012 would pay nothing. This family in 1965, making $6,173, would pay $477 in federal taxes. The equivalent of $3,474 in 2012.

This doesn't have anything to do with the rich. There aren't enough of them to make but a minor difference. We simply aren't taxing enough people today. Politicians are buying your vote by promising lower taxes to people who already don't pay their fair share.

As I have told you before. I do not really give a about your unsourced napkin math. You have no credibility.

Also do not speak to what I am buying and not buying. For myself, I think that taxes need to be raised on all Americans and a wealth tax needs to be implemented. The primary point I was making is that in 1965, we had men writing responsible fiscal policy.

[Wild Cobra]

I agree that Obama's friends can afford to pay more.

Sure. So can families. Phase out the $1,000 per child tax credit.

[Drachen]

Sure. So can families. Phase out the $1,000 per child tax credit.

It is 500 this year.

[Wild Cobra]

It is 500 this year.

Good. Drastic in my opinion, but good. I think a good plan would be to reduce it by $200 a year. I believe slower changes are better than quick ones. Less shock on a system.

[clambake]

the good news is that wc isn't planning on having more kids!

[boutons_deux]

It is 500 this year.

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2012

The maximum earned income credit for 2012 is:

• $5,891 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,236 with two qualifying children;
• $3,169 with one qualifying child; and
• $475 with no qualifying children.

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2011

The maximum earned income credit for 2011 is:

• $5,751 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,112 with two qualifying children;
• $3,094 with one qualifying child; and
• $464 with no qualifying children.

To be eligible for EIC, both earned income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than the following amounts for 2012:

• $45,060 ($50,270 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $41,952 ($47,162 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,920 ($42,130 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,980 ($19,190 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

For 2011, earned income and AGI must be less than:

• $43,998 ($49,078 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $40,964 ($46,044 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,052 ($41,132 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,660 ($18,740 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

http://taxes.about.com/od/deductions...rnedincome.htm

[Wild Cobra]

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2012

The maximum earned income credit for 2012 is:

• $5,891 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,236 with two qualifying children;
• $3,169 with one qualifying child; and
• $475 with no qualifying children.

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2011

The maximum earned income credit for 2011 is:

• $5,751 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,112 with two qualifying children;
• $3,094 with one qualifying child; and
• $464 with no qualifying children.

To be eligible for EIC, both earned income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than the following amounts for 2012:

• $45,060 ($50,270 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $41,952 ($47,162 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,920 ($42,130 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,980 ($19,190 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

For 2011, earned income and AGI must be less than:

• $43,998 ($49,078 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $40,964 ($46,044 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,052 ($41,132 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,660 ($18,740 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

http://taxes.about.com/od/deductions...rnedincome.htm

Thus, the cycle of dependance continues.

The poor vote to legally steal other people's money. They vote for those promising to give them other people's money. The lawmakers redistribute this money to them, and the vicious cycle never ends.

[boutons_deux]

Thus, the cycle of dependance continues.

The poor vote to legally steal other people's money. They vote for those promising to give them other people's money. The lawmakers redistribute this money to them, and the vicious cycle never ends.

Your blind, fact-free ideology.

People with those EARNED INCOMES are almost all working poor that will very likely NEVER be anything other than working poor, and same for their kids due to upward mobility in the USA having declined in the past 3 or 4 decades. US upward mobility is now lower than almost all other industrial countries.

But you have no problem with the "cycle of dependency" of the MIC, delivering garbage like the $200M+/F-25, the Osprey, etc, etc.

[Wild Cobra]

We have the richest working poor in the world. We have people in poverty that are better off than average people in other nations. I'm tired of your indoctrinated tripe.

[boutons_deux]

We have the richest working poor in the world. We have people in poverty that are better off than average people in other nations. I'm tired of your indoctrinated tripe.

So you want to make them poorer? force them down to level of poverty in other countries? Now your "cost of living" as applies to state-education-spending/student doesn't apply per-country?

Like a true blind ideological extreme Randian right-winger, you concentrate on the poor 47% as THE problem while ignoring the real problem of the 1% ing up the country, and making the poor poorer.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't want to make them poorer. I want them to stop taking from others. I want the en lement mentality to end, and for people to take the pride to do better for themselves.

[boutons_deux]

I don't want to make them poorer. I want them to stop taking from others. I want the en lement mentality to end, and for people to take the pride to do better for themselves.

again, your obsession with ing over the poor mirrors exactly the Cat-Food austerity the 1% is trying to impose on the 47%.

You don't GAF about the 1% "taking from others" on the order of $Ts, exorbitant cell phone bills for ty service, exorbitant bundled cable TV packages padded with dozens of pure garbage channels, exorbitant health insurance rates and absolute rip-off health care costs, the 1% operating the for-profit college scam, the payday loan sharking, etc, etc.

[Wild Cobra]

And I don't GAF about the irresponsible who think they are en led to other people's money.

They are losers with a capital L.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seeing people argue about marginal rates on regular income is frustrating and shows how little most Americans know about our tax code.

There's a mathematical reality neither the Republicans nor the Democrats in Washington want to accept that the only way a country can have a strong middle class that doesn't weaken over time is with an extremely progressive tax system that actually does "redistribute" wealth. The tax ideas in this country right now involving increased regular income tax/increased sales tax/etc. accomplish absolutely nothing and are worthless talking points Obama sanctimoniously harps on to make middle class and poor Americans think he really wants to increase the rich's tax burden. For that matter, the Republicans who really think Obama's goal is to heavily tax the rich and make them pay a lot more is even more stupid.

The sales tax wealthy people pay is meaningless as they only spend a tiny portion of their total income (sales tax is one of the most regressive taxes there is), and the regular income tax wealthy people pay is meaningless as their regular income is a small portion of their total income. Both of those are drops in the bucket for them.

The two really big problems are cap gains and estate taxes. Capital gains should be taxed as regular income and the way people get to shelter their cap gains income needs to change. The tax holidays people get where they can convert their IRA into a Roth IRA when Roth IRAs were meant to only have a max $5,000 annual contribution are a complete joke and they only benefit the absolute wealthiest. The estate tax is also a joke because of how easy it is for estate planners to lower the tax value of people's estates. A good estate planner can take an estate worth $100,000,000 and reduce its tax value to under the $5,000,000 exception. Until this country starts taxing the out of cap gains and chopping high net worth estates in half every time someone dies, the tax code will be completely ed.

Eliminating cap gains and the estate tax exemptions would destroy small business as we know it. It completely kills any incentive to invest your savings in a business.

[LnGrrrR]

Eliminating cap gains and the estate tax exemptions would destroy small business as we know it. It completely kills any incentive to invest your savings in a business.

Couldn't we then put a cap on the cap? How about limit the amount one business could receive on capital gains, with a sliding scale based on the percentage of operations actually located in the US?

[LnGrrrR]

Sure. So can families. Phase out the $1,000 per child tax credit.

WC, I think you missed this question.

Also WC, if you taxed the middle and lower classes more heavily, wouldn't that greatly depress our economy? The lower income levels would have less money to spend on the economy, and that tax money would go right to the government. But you don't want to increase the size of government, do you? Also, do you think the government would spend that money as efficiently as the families who paid those taxes would?

[Wild Cobra]

Also WC, if you taxed the middle and lower classes more heavily, wouldn't that greatly depress our economy? The lower income levels would have less money to spend on the economy, and that tax money would go right to the government. But you don't want to increase the size of government, do you? Also, do you think the government would spend that money as efficiently as the families who paid those taxes would?

My point is a matter of principle. There isn't enough more revenue to by taxing the rich. If the poor and middle class think the government needs more revenue, then it need to come from them as well.

[boutons_deux]

"There isn't enough more revenue to by taxing the rich"

You Lie

Even after Regug tax cuts, tax avoidance, tax evasion, etc, etc, the top 20% pay 70% of total incomes taxes because of their incomes vastly, vastly, VASTLY surpass the income of the 80%.

[CosmicCowboy]

Eliminating the cap gains tax would also destroy the real estate market.

Example:

Lets say you invested $500,000 in a commercial property in 1980.

Lets say you paid your property taxes every year and then sold the property this year for 1.4 million.

You just made out like a bandit, didn't you?

uhhhh nope. You just lost your ass.

According to the IRS, investment "profit" is not indexed to inflation.

According to the IRS you just had a $900,000 "profit" on your investment that you now owe taxes on. Even at the "low" cap gains rate you guys are ing about you would owe 20% (because you "made" more than $400,000 that year plus another 3.8% for Obamacare, so you would owe $214,200 in tax on your "profit". Tax it as ordinary income and you would owe $400,000+.

The only problem with this is there was really no profit at all. Even ignoring all the local property taxes paid over the years that 1.4 million in 2013 had EXACTLY THE SAME BUYING POWER as that $500,000 invested in 1980 after inflation.

you Boutons you ignorant piece of .

[boutons_deux]

Eliminating the cap gains tax would also destroy the real estate market.

You Lie

America built MILLIONS and MILLIONS of new homes and commercial buildings with capital gains rate up to double today's 15% for decades.

http://www.cch.com/wbot2012/029CapitalGains.asp

[Th'Pusher]

Eliminating the cap gains tax would also destroy the real estate market.

Example:

Lets say you invested $500,000 in a commercial property in 1980.

Lets say you paid your property taxes every year and then sold the property this year for 1.4 million.

You just made out like a bandit, didn't you?

uhhhh nope. You just lost your ass.

According to the IRS, investment "profit" is not indexed to inflation.

According to the IRS you just had a $900,000 "profit" on your investment that you now owe taxes on. Even at the "low" cap gains rate you guys are ing about you would owe 20% (because you "made" more than $400,000 that year plus another 3.8% for Obamacare, so you would owe $214,200 in tax on your "profit". Tax it as ordinary income and you would owe $400,000+.

The only problem with this is there was really no profit at all. Even ignoring all the local property taxes paid over the years that 1.4 million in 2013 had EXACTLY THE SAME BUYING POWER as that $500,000 invested in 1980 after inflation.

you Boutons you ignorant piece of .

I can Cherry Pick examples too! I purchased 10k shares of apple stock in June 2011 @ $315 for $3,115,000. I sold them in Sept 2012 @ $700 per share. I just made a $3.85M profit in just over a year that will be taxed at 15% cap gains rate.

There have been multiple studies showing the favorable treatment of cap gains is the primary driver of growning inequality.

[BobaFett1]

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2012

The maximum earned income credit for 2012 is:

• $5,891 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,236 with two qualifying children;
• $3,169 with one qualifying child; and
• $475 with no qualifying children.

Earned Income Tax Credit Amounts for Year 2011

The maximum earned income credit for 2011 is:

• $5,751 with three or more qualifying children;
• $5,112 with two qualifying children;
• $3,094 with one qualifying child; and
• $464 with no qualifying children.

To be eligible for EIC, both earned income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than the following amounts for 2012:

• $45,060 ($50,270 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $41,952 ($47,162 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,920 ($42,130 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,980 ($19,190 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

For 2011, earned income and AGI must be less than:

• $43,998 ($49,078 married filing jointly) with 3 or more qualifying children
• $40,964 ($46,044 married filing jointly) with 2 qualifying children;
• $36,052 ($41,132 married filing jointly) with 1 qualifying child; or
• $13,660 ($18,740 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.

http://taxes.about.com/od/deductions...rnedincome.htm

Man this is socialist talk here son. Take from others and give to have nots.

[boutons_deux]

Man this is socialist talk here son. Take from others and give to have nots.

those "takers/moochers" are employed, they aren't 1%er racist St Ronnie's (black) Welfare Queens in Cadillacs.

How about raising minimum wage to $12, indexed to regional Cost of Living so people get "bracket creep-ed" up and out of the above brackets?