Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 154
  1. #126
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Post Count
    41,715
    I agree. Put him in the ing starting lineup.

  2. #127
    One of the most best jag's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Post Count
    13,882
    I am throwing out examples with question marks to define a star, to which you have no definition. Star on A team, star in the league. You have some hidden definition which you cannot give criteria for.

    And apparently a star must be playing at a high level right now. Stars from the past don't exist. Give a GD definition with criteria, not your flippant musings.

    And quit acting like some acne ridden homer child. Ssince you are so sure of your hidden system, who is the bigger star, Chauncey Billups or Tony Parker? How would you rate their careers right now? Explain please.
    Why do you think I even picked Hamilton, ya cycloptic homer? And quit adding stuff, I never stated they were equal. Answer the Billups question and back it up oh great chooser of "the stars"?
    Why you mad tho? My hidden “system” to determine which players are stars? lol

    I haven’t really defined an arbitrary set of parameters to objectively determine which NBA players are, or are not, “stars.”

    As far as a comparison between Billups and Parker, it’s difficult to compare their respective careers overall. Counting this season, Billups has played 16 seasons and Parker has played 12. Billups spent his first 6 seasons with 5 different teams. During that time he missed 121 games due to injury. Tony is a very different story.

    If you want to compare the two, you’ll have to choose a set of years for each player that can be considered their “prime” years. I think this is really the only way it’s fair for Billups. For Tony, I picked ’03-’04 through the current season ’12-’13. For Chauncey, I just picked the years when he started playing significant minutes (after his injuries) to a time just a couple years ago when he started to noticeably drop off -- ‘01-’02 through ’10-’11.



    The numbers are fairly similar during their “prime” years. Tony scored more points, but he also shot the ball more. Billups shot a much lower FG%, but he also made more 3-pointers so that bumped up his PPG average. Tony has slightly more assists, but he also has slightly more turnovers. Overall, I tried to balance the stats out as much as possible so the two were on a level playing field. It doesn’t look like much, but Billups’ MPG being higher than Tony’s resulted in Tony being favored in virtually all categories once you start comparing Per 36 Min stats. And if you really want to compare “careers” and not just their best years, you can toss in the first 4 years of Chauncey’s career where in 215 games he averaged 27 MPG, 10.9 PPG, shot 39% from the field and had 3.7 Assists per game. You end up with one guy (Parker) who has shot 50% for his career, and another guy (Billups) who has shot closer to 40% for his career.



    If we’re going to compare careers, in 16 years Billups hasn’t put together a better career than Tony has during his 12 years. You can compare the stats or you can compare career accomplishments. Both players are 5x NBA All-Stars. Both players have won NBA Finals MVP. Billups has 1 ring - Tony has 3. You could compare the players defensively, but I’ve always thought Billups was an overrated defender, while Tony’s defense has always been underrated. Whatever your opinion, I’m not sure how you could prove or disprove either point.

    If nothing else, Tony has been a dependable model of consistency throughout his career. Tony started contributing immediately as a 19 year old straight from France. It wasn’t until Billups was 25 years old that he showed enough ability for a team to want to hold on to him. Parker didn’t have a 5 year span being a chucker bouncing from team to team. And Parker has never been a player who will straight up shoot you out of playoff games. During his “prime” it wasn’t all that surprising to see Billups go full JR Smith with his chucking. Parker still has a lot left in his tank, and if he continues his great play for another 3-4 years, I don’t see how they’ll be any comparison between the two, especially when you take into account each player’s entire body of work, including rings.


    Is Parker more of a star than Chauncey Billups to all who have watched the NBA for 15 years?
    Yeah, I’d say so. And considering how much he’s bounced around the League, I think a few GM’s agree.

  3. #128
    Veteran ace3g's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    40,447
    New Pope is from Buenos Aires, Argentina; Manu will dominate the rest of the season

  4. #129
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    New Pope is from Buenos Aires, Argentina; Manu will dominate the rest of the season
    Let us pray

  5. #130
    Veteran hater's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Post Count
    74,105
    not sold on starting him. Yes, we'll be able to hide his bagness in the starting lineup next to TD and Parker, but at what cost? Danny Green will turn to complete .

    but it might be worth it. Manu's confidence is shot to right now. At least with some confidence back he might at least stop being a liability.

  6. #131
    Veteran hater's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Post Count
    74,105
    lol hater
    You're due to get powned soon...
    I'll gladly take an ownage by Manu in the WCF. but there's practically zero chance of that happening.

  7. #132
    Emperor Duncan>>>>>King James tim_duncan_fan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Post Count
    3,964
    Nono is right about there being very few stars. Counting aging world-beaters like Tim, and being easy about the definition, there's probably 12 in the league now.

    Tim
    Kobe (Dot Howard isn't a star)
    Durant
    Lebron
    Wade (Bosh isn't a star)
    Dirk
    Rose (maybe)
    Harden
    Chris Paul
    Blake Griffin

    Steph Curry will step into this group and Kyrie Irving doesn't get in because he plays for the Cavaliers, but his talent is evident an undeniable.

    To me, a star is a player that has a lasting, playoff-positive effect on his team on a year to year basis. An entire organization revolves around a star. If a player is a star, removing said player from his team devastates the present and future of the entire organization. You remove a star and the entire organization collapses, because a star naturally has an organization built around him or based on him. Yes, we would probably miss the playoffs without Parker, but the entire Spurs situation not-so-secretly revolves around the hope of Tim Duncan attaining some semblance of playoff 2003 dominance.

    Guys like Parker, Bosh, Al Horford, Garnett, Josh Smith, maybe Rose, Melo Anthony and youthful Manu Ginobili are very good players that may have at some point in time been considered as a franchise cornerstone, but are not in fact one of the greats. They are all-stars, but they really don't affect the shape of the league the way true stars do. They get "nice" numbers and are nice players, but picking them as "the guy" won't net you championships or a cemented, decade-long place in the conversation about championships. You can't rest your franchise on their shoulders or you will fail and/or they will leave to be a second or third option for a true star.

    Like it or not, you can "feel" that there is a difference between a 2003 Duncan and a 2012 Parker. They simply aren't the same caliber of player.

    Parker may be a better ball player than Blake Griffin is, but Griffin is an athletic 6'10 with a 50" vertical.

    Nash was a star because he held the Suns organization on his shoulders. They may not have won a championship, but that team was all Nash. Nash was a force that you could not ignore in his position as "centerpiece." Parker, and Ginobili were never that and likely could not have been that. Money, the prospect of being "the one" and human nature lead to Harden becoming a centerpiece because he could be that. If you're not a star, a centerpiece, it's because you aren't and you can't and you couldn't.
    Last edited by tim_duncan_fan; 03-13-2013 at 06:15 PM.

  8. #133
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    ^ There's admittedly some that are difficult to classify... cases like KG or Pierce. They had franchises built around them, and it didn't quite work out, but I don't know that necessarily means they didn't have the talent.

  9. #134
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Post Count
    100,825
    Garnett undoubtedly WAS a star. Pierce is weird because the Celtics had those dead seasons before KG arrived. But pierce was clearly carrying the early 2000's celtics into the playoffs back when they had black hole antoine walker. I'd still call pierce a star as he's clearly the best on that team. I'd easily add Rose and Melo into that list. Nash also fits into the "former" stars category.

  10. #135
    Emperor Duncan>>>>>King James tim_duncan_fan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Post Count
    3,964
    I feel like Melo's teams are always going to fall short and never really make a deep playoff run. There's a story every year that suggests Melo lacks essential leadership qualities. He's the Randy Moss of basketball.

  11. #136
    Paranoid
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Post Count
    435
    Lol at Manu fans coming up with takes to diffuse the pathetic performance of Manu.

    TP is the best PG in the league and has been for the last year and a half, he's a star, he led his team in the playoffs where the overrated bench/system let him down, that's what happened last year but somehow the system is the star and Pop is the genius on spurstalk yada yada.

  12. #137
    Veteran Proxy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Post Count
    4,095
    Winning one game (or losing one game) with or without Tony supports neither side of the argument. It's not about one game.

    The system isn't made for Tim, Tony or Manu. The system is designed to get the most out of support players. The system allows players like Green, Neal, Kawhi, Diaw and Splitter to focus on very specific roles within the offense. It's like workers on an assembly line. Players with the requisite talent, as well as unselfish stars, can be plugged into the system and the machine keeps rolling with the players being more or less interchangeable. But the thing that separates Tony from the rest of the team is that he can consistently distribute, score and create his own offense independent of the system. When the system breaks down, Tony is able to take over. Without the system is Tony capable of carrying the team all the way to a le? On his own, I don't think so. But even a prime Kobe Bryant, on his own, was just lucky to get the Lakers to the playoffs. In 04-05, without Shaq and the Triangle, the Lakers didn't make the playoffs. In 05-06, with Phil's great system, Kobe couldn't get the Lakers out of the first round. Is Bryant, one of the top 2 players of the past 10 years, not a "star" either?

    No, Tony isn't on the same level as Bryant. And no, Tony doesn't have the same garbage players around him that Bryant had. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think that this Spurs team - without Tim and Manu - would be a perennial playoff team with Tony leading the way. Don't confuse Tony's unselfishness, and willingness to play within the system, for the fact that he could go for 30 points a night if he wanted to. As talented and as much of a star as Chris Paul is, I think Tony has done more with his ability than Paul has, especially within the confines of Pop's system. Looking at his consistent production and career achievements, I think that makes him just as much of a star.
    Agree with everything. The point I was trying to make is that we don't have a chance to get to the finals without Tony. He yields the highest percentage of responsibility in terms of the team's success due of his incredible play, and consistency as you stated. Denying that would be moronic. That being said, I think good cases could be made that the absence of any of the Spurs' top 5-6 players on the depth chart would pretty much leave some glaring hole to be exploited by any of the elite teams come playoff time. Because of that and the team winning through injuries, I was thinking that none of the players necessarily transcend the system while acknowledging Parker plays the most important role. I was pointing that out because nono and hater seemed to be arguing black and white to something very grey.

  13. #138
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    Agree with everything. The point I was trying to make is that we don't have a chance to get to the finals without Tony. He yields the highest percentage of responsibility in terms of the team's success due of his incredible play, and consistency as you stated. Denying that would be moronic. That being said, I think good cases could be made that the absence of any of the Spurs' top 5-6 players on the depth chart would pretty much leave some glaring hole to be exploited by any of the elite teams come playoff time. Because of that and the team winning through injuries, I was thinking that none of the players necessarily transcend the system while acknowledging Parker plays the most important role. I was pointing that out because nono and hater seemed to be arguing black and white to something very grey.
    There's no black and white, right or wrong. It's all opinion. That's why I stated I have no problem with how somebody else defines 'star', or obviously, how you rank them.

  14. #139
    Veteran Proxy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Post Count
    4,095
    There's no black and white, right or wrong. It's all opinion. That's why I stated I have no problem with how somebody else defines 'star', or obviously, how you rank them.
    This team rises and falls with Duncan. (which contradicts any points I made)
    Last edited by Proxy; 03-13-2013 at 07:16 PM.

  15. #140
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Post Count
    39,469
    Why you mad tho? My hidden “system” to determine which players are stars? lol

    I haven’t really defined an arbitrary set of parameters to objectively determine which NBA players are, or are not, “stars.”

    As far as a comparison between Billups and Parker, it’s difficult to compare their respective careers overall. Counting this season, Billups has played 16 seasons and Parker has played 12. Billups spent his first 6 seasons with 5 different teams. During that time he missed 121 games due to injury. Tony is a very different story.

    If you want to compare the two, you’ll have to choose a set of years for each player that can be considered their “prime” years. I think this is really the only way it’s fair for Billups. For Tony, I picked ’03-’04 through the current season ’12-’13. For Chauncey, I just picked the years when he started playing significant minutes (after his injuries) to a time just a couple years ago when he started to noticeably drop off -- ‘01-’02 through ’10-’11.



    The numbers are fairly similar during their “prime” years. Tony scored more points, but he also shot the ball more. Billups shot a much lower FG%, but he also made more 3-pointers so that bumped up his PPG average. Tony has slightly more assists, but he also has slightly more turnovers. Overall, I tried to balance the stats out as much as possible so the two were on a level playing field. It doesn’t look like much, but Billups’ MPG being higher than Tony’s resulted in Tony being favored in virtually all categories once you start comparing Per 36 Min stats. And if you really want to compare “careers” and not just their best years, you can toss in the first 4 years of Chauncey’s career where in 215 games he averaged 27 MPG, 10.9 PPG, shot 39% from the field and had 3.7 Assists per game. You end up with one guy (Parker) who has shot 50% for his career, and another guy (Billups) who has shot closer to 40% for his career.



    If we’re going to compare careers, in 16 years Billups hasn’t put together a better career than Tony has during his 12 years. You can compare the stats or you can compare career accomplishments. Both players are 5x NBA All-Stars. Both players have won NBA Finals MVP. Billups has 1 ring - Tony has 3. You could compare the players defensively, but I’ve always thought Billups was an overrated defender, while Tony’s defense has always been underrated. Whatever your opinion, I’m not sure how you could prove or disprove either point.

    If nothing else, Tony has been a dependable model of consistency throughout his career. Tony started contributing immediately as a 19 year old straight from France. It wasn’t until Billups was 25 years old that he showed enough ability for a team to want to hold on to him. Parker didn’t have a 5 year span being a chucker bouncing from team to team. And Parker has never been a player who will straight up shoot you out of playoff games. During his “prime” it wasn’t all that surprising to see Billups go full JR Smith with his chucking. Parker still has a lot left in his tank, and if he continues his great play for another 3-4 years, I don’t see how they’ll be any comparison between the two, especially when you take into account each player’s entire body of work, including rings.



    Yeah, I’d say so. And considering how much he’s bounced around the League, I think a few GM’s agree.
    I would say Billups led less talented teams to championships. Got more out of his team as a leader. I would say Billups had a much better all around game. Note: without stats and without a clean definition... Yet salient and in no way diff. than how other NBA execs., besides yourself, might answer.

    Especially since Billups is NOW old, and IF I were a Detroit fan.

    If no-no says Parker is not a star, and then states only Duncan has been out of the big 3, I took that to mean Franchise "stars". The superlative was set for me. Then we started going NBA broadcast with the superlatives, and I had no idea what a star is or was. IS, obviously gave a player more points, which is why I used Billups.
    Last edited by pgardn; 03-13-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  16. #141
    Veteran hater's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Post Count
    74,105
    Lol at Manu fans coming up with takes to diffuse the pathetic performance of Manu.

    TP is the best PG in the league and has been for the last year and a half, he's a star, he led his team in the playoffs where the overrated bench/system let him down, that's what happened last year but somehow the system is the star and Pop is the genius on spurstalk yada yada.
    agree. while there's room for "my opinion, my rules" kind of takes. There's the mainstream thinking and majority perception and in the real world, 9 out of 10 basketball knowledgeable people will agree that Parker is a star. And is the star player of the San Antonio Spurs.

    of course there's doubters and denyers. they live in the fringes of logic and just exist.

  17. #142
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Post Count
    39,469
    Lol at Manu fans coming up with takes to diffuse the pathetic performance of Manu.

    TP is the best PG in the league and has been for the last year and a half, he's a star, he led his team in the playoffs where the overrated bench/system let him down, that's what happened last year but somehow the system is the star and Pop is the genius on spurstalk yada yada.
    You gotta be kidding. Let him down... the bench definitely, the plays... meh.

    We got beat by a younger team playing better basketball in the W. Finals. Nothing wrong with that.

    Chris Paul is the best PG. I admire Tony and his grit (besides the fact he said we did not have a chance last year.) If he could hit 3's comfortably I would rate Tony the best. The fact that the 3 is not really in the arsenal puts him at a severe disadvantage during the playoffs.

  18. #143
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    agree. while there's room for "my opinion, my rules" kind of takes. There's the mainstream thinking and majority perception and in the real world, 9 out of 10 basketball knowledgeable people will agree that Parker is a star. And is the star player of the San Antonio Spurs.

    of course there's doubters and denyers. they live in the fringes of logic and just exist.
    self-appointing yourself as the arbiter of "mainstream thinking and majority perception"

    Every time you went with a semi-'gutsy' call since Tony went down you've been nothing but wrong. You're basically shooting worse than Manu in the last 3 games, tbh.

    What you need to do is stick with the vanilla, low risk-high reward takes like "Miami is going to win it all". Good odds, and the average basketball reader here will think you at least watch the games.

  19. #144
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    19,194
    @ this thread.

    So, with the "Ginobili is awesome" thesis not being able to be seriously defended given his performances, Manu's homers are now in "but Parker is not great too" mode.

    It has been like that for years. When Ginobili can't be pimped because he sucks, let's trash Parker because, you know, Ginobili>Parker.

  20. #145
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    @ this thread.

    So, with the "Ginobili is awesome" thesis not being able to be seriously defended given his performances, Manu's homers are now in "but Parker is not great too" mode.

    It has been like that for years. When Ginobili can't be pimped because he sucks, let's trash Parker.
    I called Tony amongst the top talent in the league, so I gather you're referring to somebody else?

  21. #146
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    19,194
    I called Tony amongst the top talent in the league, so I gather you're referring to somebody else?
    You're one of these "Manu's homers".

  22. #147
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    You're one of these "Manu's homers".
    So what you're saying is that I'm wrong and Tony isn't amongst the top talent in the league? I disagree, but that's your opinion...

    If not, state your disagreement.

  23. #148
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Post Count
    47,238
    The fact that Manu is now old and broken doesn't take away the fact that Manu > Tony as a basketball player and human being, tbh.

  24. #149
    Less is More
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Post Count
    2,113
    I called Tony amongst the top talent in the league, so I gather you're referring to somebody else?

    the fact that this thread has absolutely nothing to do about Parker yet Manusuckers bring him up
    its about Ginobilis inability to lead a bench unit
    Manusuckers have also trashed Tiago for no reason in this thread

  25. #150
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    the fact that this thread has absolutely nothing to do about Parker yet Manusuckers bring him up
    its about Ginobilis inability to lead a bench unit
    Manusuckers have also trashed Tiago for no reason in this thread
    Well, *I* certainly didn't bring him up... as far as I can tell, he was brought up in this post:

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post6415548

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •