Reply With Quote
even if you take away duncans 4 les
he still appeared in 4 championship series
had deeper runs
better rs records...
so what do the other clowns have besides better ac ulated stats that have earn them nothing?
No one is playing the low post game anymore. All the big buys want to be perimeter players now. Just look at Lebron (6'8" or 6'9") and Durant (6'10").
even if you take away duncans 4 les
he still appeared in 4 championship series
had deeper runs
better rs records...
so what do the other clowns have besides better ac ulated stats that have earn them nothing?
people holding Tim's height against him
if kobe was 4 foot 6 he wouldn't be as good either
Nowitzki is pretty much getting underrated in this thread by some. He is most definitely in the Garnett/Barkley group in terms of effectiveness and dominance on the court throughout his career.
Garnett led the league in RS win shares twice, Nowitzki led the league in win shares twice, right after Garnett did. Nowitzki was also ranked #2 thrice and #3 once. In PO win shares, Nowitzki was #1 in 2006, ranked #3 in 2011, and #4 in 2003. Garnett was never ranked in the top 5, making #6 twice and #7 once. Note that the two years he ranked #6, either Rondo or both Rondo and Pierce was ranked above Garnett.
While Garnett never did, playing in the same era. Nowitzki was the more potent offensive force. Better shooter (thought Garnett was no slouch), better driver to the basket, even had a comparable post up game (that little turn around of Dirk was money most times). Needless to say, Garnett was the better defender, ranking #2 in DWS 4 times, #4 twice, and #5 once, but for all the defensive sieve comments about Nowitzki, he actually ranked #6 twice in his career.
The biggest "weakness" in Nowitzki's game is how unorthodox it was, and that he required a specific set of players around him to be dominant. He requires a defensive unit around him. Players like Chandler and Kidd fits in with that perfectly, and needs some shooters to nail open shots that Dirk created. However, Garnett's game is clearly one of a 2nd wheel offensively. He can be the defensive anchor on a championship team, no doubt, but his lack of a go-to game can never allow him being the offensive center of a championship team. The few years Garnett was successful in the playoffs, he had scorers like Pierce, Sprewell and/or Cassell playing with him.
In this league, it is easier to find defensive role players than it is to find offensive players of the caliber of 2010 Pierce of 2003 Sprewell.
And if Chuck had been as big as Zo he'd have been illegal in 7 states (including Puerto Rico).
if kobe was 4 foot 6 he wouldn't be as good either
This Karl Malone – Tim Duncan argument is laughable, especially coming from Laker fans who has continued to use the 5>4 argument over and over again, and now, suddenly, is pulling the “Championship is a team accomplishment” card.
While I agree championship is a team accomplishment, a player’s value ultimately rests on how valuable he is to his team. Duncan has demonstrated year after year, from 1998 to around 2006 that he was the most important part of the Spurs offense. 4-down was so successful, championship-level successful despite its predictability and repe iveness purely because of Duncan’s dominance on the offensive side.
On the other hand, Malone was a finisher on the famous pick-and-roll. He was one of the best big man in running the floor, and he has a fantastic mid-range jumper, but those are not championship leading moves, and more importantly, they are Stockton reliant. There is but a few PGs in the history of the league who can run the pick and roll like Stockton did, and yet there are hundreds and hundreds who can throw a simple entry pass to Duncan to start a four-down offense. In other words, Duncan creates the offense, Malone was, in many cases, a recipient. We saw how effective Malone was in the finals when the best perimeter defense in the league (the Bulls) decided to shut down the Stockton created offense.
To top it off, an over-the-hill Rodman was able to shut down Malone in the finals, while Duncan was able to defeat the Wallace brothers (two of the best defensive players in the early 00s). The Spurs offense was slow-paced, but consistent, and that speaks to how unstoppable Duncan is. You know what he will do, you know what the Spurs will do, but they still put up 75 to 90 points a game. On the other hand, Malone could be stopped, you trap Stockton, the Jazz puts up 59 points in the finals.
On defense, while Duncan had an all-world defender in Robinson all the up to 2003, and a defensive wizard in Bowen later on, the Spurs were perennially one of the best defensive teams in the league. In fact, numbers wise, the Spurs had 3 or 4 of the top defensive teams in league history. The Jazz, on the other hand, despite having defensive players like Eaton and Stockton, have always been middle of the road on defense. Duncan was the much better team defender, much better weak side defender, and moderately better one on one defender.
Not to mention, Duncan was the better rebounder, better teammate (he doesn’t go hunt little Mexican girls), not a pedophile, can handle the ball better, is more versatile (played SF in his younger days, played PF during his prime, and C late in his career), and doesn’t kill animals for fun.
From a statistical standpoint, the numbers breakdown as follows:
Karl Malone had zero seasons where he was ranked top 5 in offensive ratings, the same as Duncan.
For defensive rating, Malone was ranked 3rd once, Duncan was #1 four times, #2 four times, #3 thrice, and #4 once.
Offensive win shares, Malone was ranked #1 once, #2 five times, while Duncan was only ranked #1 once.
Defensive win shares, Malone was ranked #2 and #4 three times each, while Duncan was first 5 times, 2nd twice, 3rd four times, and 4th once.
In win shares, Malone was #1, #2 and #5 twice each, and #3 and #4 thrice each, while Duncan was ranked #1 twice, and 3rd and 4th twice each.
Looking at the numbers, you would think that, well, Duncan was way better than Malone defensively, but Malone made up for it with the offensive numbers and win share. However, you have to take into account the presence of Stockton. You are talking about a guy with an offensive rating that ranked him #1 in the league (when legends like Jordan, Magic and Isiah were in their primes) three times, 2nd twice, 3rd once, 4th 3 times, and 5th once. This further supports the observation that Stockton was the Jazz’s offense, not Malone. Malone was a finisher, we all know that, but so was Corey Maggette, but no one in their right minds will say Maggette is the better scorer, than say, Antonio McDyess because Maggette’s got more career points.
[QUOTE=FkLA;6427382[FONT=Verdana] Being so long helped him alot, for sure. In a way taller players kind of have an advantage since they can have a bigger impact (he can protect the basket for example which Malone wasnt very good at other than delivering hard fouls) but you cant seriously be holding the fact that Timmy is tall against him.
NO, the Twin towers was an excellent lineup. Having 2-7 foot centers instead of a PF was a match-up nightmare for 95% of the league. The Lakers used it with Gasol/Bynum and won back to back les with it. Does that mean that Gasol should be considered the greatest PF?
You're focusing on the wrong thing. CENTER is the focus. You can not compare Malone and Duncan because Duncan played Center throughout his career. You could put All of the PF/C in the PF's category and they would all make the same claim that they were better rebounders and defenders than any power forward. Why? because they were centers and that's what centers do. I understand Duncan wanting to be classified as a PF for awards because at center he would rank in the Top 15 of the greatest centers to play the game. If you rank them regardless of position Duncan would be top 25.
Basketball reference shows Timmie as playing half his career at Center, Pop says Tim Duncan played all of his career at Center and this is his rank amongst his peers.
The best PF/C"S in NBA History,
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Bob McAdoo
4. kevin garnett
5. Tim duncan
Honorable mention: Jerry Lucas, Paul Gasol, Derrick D. Coleman, Antonio McDyess. Daniel Ricardo Manning
Kevin McHale, Bill Cartwright. Marcus Camby, Rasheed Abdul Wallace, Jack Sikma, Paul Silas, etc.
I listen to spurs fans say that Malone was a big choker, NEWSFLASH: So was Tim Duncan. You could never count on him
in a close game or depend on him winning or tying the game at the line. He was a big time choker who couldn't shoot free-throws.
Tim Duncan is/was a great player with a stellar career but he is not the GOAT of anything.
Wait a minute, I take that back, he was the goat at this. When I think of Tim Duncan, this is the first thing that comes to my mind.
LINK
[QUOTE=LakeShow;6428551]1997-2003: David Robinson was CenterBeing so long helped him alot, for sure. In a way taller players kind of have an advantage since they can have a bigger impact (he can protect the basket for example which Malone wasnt very good at other than delivering hard fouls) but you cant seriously be holding the fact that Timmy is tall against him.
NO, the Twin towers was an excellent lineup. Having 2-7 foot centers instead of a PF was a match-up nightmare for 95% of the league. The Lakers used it with Gasol/Bynum and won back to back les with it. Does that mean that Gasol should be considered the greatest PF?
You're focusing on the wrong thing. CENTER is the focus. You can not compare Malone and Duncan because Duncan played Center throughout his career. You could put All of the PF/C in the PF's category and they would all make the same claim that they were better rebounders and defenders than any power forward. Why? because they were centers and that's what centers do. I understand Duncan wanting to be classified as a PF for awards because at center he would rank in the Top 15 of the greatest centers to play the game. If you rank them regardless of position Duncan would be top 25.
Basketball reference shows Timmie as playing half his career at Center, Pop says Tim Duncan played all of his career at Center and this is his rank amongst his peers.
The best PF/C"S in NBA History,
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Bob McAdoo
4. kevin garnett
5. Tim duncan
Honorable mention: Jerry Lucas, Paul Gasol, Derrick D. Coleman, Antonio McDyess. Daniel Ricardo Manning
Kevin McHale, Bill Cartwright. Marcus Camby, Rasheed Abdul Wallace, Jack Sikma, Paul Silas, etc.
I listen to spurs fans say that Malone was a big choker, NEWSFLASH: So was Tim Duncan. You could never count on him
in a close game or depend on him winning or tying the game at the line. He was a big time choker who couldn't shoot free-throws.
Tim Duncan is/was a great player with a stellar career but he is not the GOAT of anything.
Wait a minute, I take that back, he was the goat at this. When I think of Tim Duncan, this is the first thing that comes to my mind.
LINK
2003-2007: Rasho Nesterovic, Francisco Elson, Fabricio Oberto were starting Centers
It was only in recent years, where Matt Bonner or DeJuan Blair started where you can argue he was a Center. Enough already. Either that, or Gasol was a Center too. So was Charles Oakley, right? I guess Dirk was a Center in 2011 because he started using his post game to win ball games?
Also, after all that garbage, you rank KG above Duncan in your "Best PF/Cs in NBA History", and Duncan is "Top 25" all-time?!? [/credibility]
Duncan is Top 10 all-time, and PF GOAT. He's the greatest winner outside of maybe the 1960s Celtics, Magic Johnson, and Manu Ginobili, that we've ever seen.
Back in my days, trolling used to be an art. You really have to put thought in it. Put out some borderline controversial points and bait those unaware. Nowadays, kids just act like full on re s to get a reaction. Times have changed.
NBA positions have always been muddied up. Official position names were added to the game to make it easier for fans to follow. But if you think every team has 1 point guard, 1 shooting guard, 1 small forward, 1 power forward, and 1 center at all times, lets dig into it. For the first 6 seasons of Duncan's career, arguably his 6 most productive (and encompassing both his MVP seasons), he started alongside Robinson, who would never be confused for a forward. So Duncan was a power forward then. In the 03-04 season, Duncan started next to Rasho, a Center. The following year, we were starting Francisco Elson until Nazr Mohammed was brought in via trade. Oberto was the starting center the next year, the 06-07 championship year. So we've already concluded that in all of Tim's MVP Seasons, all his championship seasons, his Finals MVP seasons... he was playing power forward the whole time. Oberto was also starting during the 07-08 year. In 08-09 the Spurs actually brought in and started Kurt Thomas. If you are going to confuse Robinson, Elson, Oberto, Nesterovich, or Kurt Thomas (in his time as a Spur) as forwards, then you need to rethink this.
The Spurs then had 1 season with Bonner starting (gag) and brought in Blair who started awhile until McDyess started in the playoffs. Now Blair is tiny as , but he still plays center. The guy can't shoot from further than 6 feet.
Now you can break down the way Tim plays. He's got an awesome back to the basket post game. Very center like. You know who else had a great back to the basket game? Kevin McHale, who Duncan is often compared to, as far as the array of post moves. McHale was never confused for a center. Tim is also known for his face up game (the bank shot, the drive to hook), and his pick and roll/pick and pop game where for his entire career he has comfortably been hitting top of the key jumpers. Not exactly traditional Center-like offense. Now, on defense, its a different story. He's been the primary rim protector in his time in San Antonio, except maybe his first 4 years or so next to Robinson, who was the defensive ace. Tim didn't usually guard Shaq, although he did at times. Now Tim is playing next to Tiago, who pretty much plays exclusively at center on offense.
What you wanna call Tim, a center or a forward? Both make sense, and he really is a tweener (as are a lot of players). If you think every team starts a center and a power forward, then realize that Tim has almost exclusively started next to Centers that could never play forward (with the exception of the Bonner season and the end of last season when Diaw was starting). But Admiral, Rasho, Elson, Mohammed, Oberto, Thomas, and yes even Blair were Centers.
No . MDE wouldn't even be a discussion.
Good post. I agree about the positions being muddled up. When doing research for certain players their positions were all over the place. You have some players who never played anything but PF but in their profile, they list them as PF/C. In Duncan's profile they call him a PF, but list him playing half his career as center. ??? I followed Bob Mcadoo's career and they always listed him at 6'11. Now he's 6'9.
I can't agree with the fact that Timmie just played PF when their is all kinds of video evidence that shows different. I find it hard to believe that spurs fans try to deny this. What kind of coach would pop be if he had one of the best pivot men in the game and didn't use him there? I'm willing to bet that there was not one game played where Timmie did not play Center for a spell.
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/23/a...lot/index.html
For years, for example, the Spurs have listed Tim Duncan as a power forward, even though everyone on earth knew he was their starting center. And so when it came to All-Star balloting, Duncan would take up a forward spot in a very crowded field of Western Conference stars instead of his logical spot in the middle. This was good for Duncan, who surely would have made his 13 All-Star teams anyway, but it often cost another forward a shot.
Sporting Charts explains Center
Because of his size, the center often positions himself near the basket or in the low post. On a zone defense, the center usually stands in the middle or below the basket. The center is typically chosen to take jump balls. Some of the greatest centers in the NBA include Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Shaquille O'Neal.
Now take a look at the thread Kool did on dunks on Duncan. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172180&page=4&p=6428665#post64286 65
Forget about the spectacular dunks and focus on the defense. Against the Lakers Timmie always manned the paint playing center and guarding centers. The video with Kobe shows the lakers in a set offense and the spurs setup defense except for 1 fastbreak.
Timmie guarding Shaq, Robinson guarding Grant and Horry
The spurs playing a zone with Timmie at the pivot
Timmie guarding Andrew Bynum while Oberto is at the top of key guarding Brian Cook
Timmie guarding Paul Gasol when he was the only center
Timmie does the Jump balls at the beginning of the game - I can't verify this but the previous article says he does
I will respectfully disagree on that one point and move on.
What's funny is that Lakeshow is actually a Houston fan who came from a Mavs board and was tired of getting trolled by Spurfans, so he fakes as a Laker fan here so he can troll and seem legit about it.
Unfortunately, he is failing miserably, while others who are doing similar things (Kool, Cubby, etc...) are far more successful, and actually humorous in the process.
Married now, actually. It's kinda strange to think that we have gone back and forth for 10 years now, lol. Sometimes I wonder what happened to some of the FWST posters.
Regardless, you are a got.
Yeah right! You're a member of the itty bitty penis committee. Don't no women want you. They rather turn lesbian, their clits are bigger than your .
Yeah, its been a long time, Stretch.
Clever!
got.
lol mad about dem rockets
dirk is very underrated, i could care less about his defense as long the other 4 guys can play some sort of D to keep the team defense honest
his offensive game far exceeds what a defense can stop him, just like chucking kobe during his 2 years 04/5-05/06
Shut up. Just shut the up. Timmy has always been a great clutch performer you ing moron.
If Tim didnt have his face-up game and the shooting range he does, it would be easy to classify him as a Center. He certainly played the part on defense. Although I still remember Robinson, Willis, and even Rose covering shaq while tim was in the game, and I do recall Tim guarding Rasheed, not Big Ben.
to avoid foul trouble, perhaps?
thats because you could guard Ben Wallace with any garbage defender and have nothing to worry about.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
