OT: Kobe or Lebron: Who Would've Been The Better College Player?

[ambchang]

Did you miss the part where I said LeBron would probably be the better college player? The only reason I say probably is because I think people are underestimating how good Kobe was out of high school himself. It's not clearly LeBron or unequivocally LeBron. It's probably LeBron. The reason I put parameters on LeBron's success because he's the one I said would have been the better college player. So that's why I focused on him when I said that. And when I said that, I only raised that as to how successful he could have been in college. I specifically stated he'd be great no matter what because his talent was just too good. But would he be on a team where he's allowed to use his athleticism to be a 25-30 point scorer in college or would he play in a more structured and equal opportunity offense. For example, LeBron would not average 25 points a game under Tom Izzo at Michigan State. He'd score in the 15-18 PPG range because of Izzo's style of coaching, who likes balance on offense with both inside and out play and rarely runs isolation plays for players.

If LeBron was drafted in the mid 90s, he doesn't start, at least not immediately and he certainly doesn't get 40 minutes a game. That just didn't happen back then. Not with Kobe, not with KG, not with T-Mac.

KG's rookie year: started 43 of 80 games and most of those were at the end of the season after Minnesota started 11-29 in the first half. Averaged 28.7 minutes per game.

T-Mac's rookie year: started 17 of 64 games and 15 of those starts happened at the end of the season after the team was 15-51. Averaged 18.4 minutes per game.

Jermaine O'Neal's rookie year: did not start a game his rookie season. averaged 10.2 minutes per game.

It wasn't just Kobe. It was all high school-to-pros players in the mid 90s. You earned your playing time, and you didn't start until the team was clearly in tank mode. And in KG's and T-Mac's situation, they were playing for teams that were among the worst in the league their rookie years. And in Jermaine O'Neal's case, he didn't even get to really play much at all because his team was pretty good, and they had good players at the position he played (Sheed, Uncle Cliffy).

LeBron drafted in the mid 90s, he doesn't start right away, doesn't average 40 minutes a game, and if he plays for a good team like Kobe and JO did, he probably gets even more limited playing time. You can criticize Kobe's shot selection or defense. You act like LeBron was a perfectly adequate NBA player from game 1. He wasn't. But he was going to play 40 minutes a game no matter what, no matter how many mistakes he made, no matter what poor decisions, no matter how many forced shots. He shot under 42% from the field his rookie year. And that's a guy who shoots close to 50% from the field the rest of his career. He shot under 30% from three point range his rookie year and he took over 200 attempts. Let's not criticize Kobe's shot selection or readiness in such a way to suggest LeBron was infallible the moment he stepped onto an NBA court. What high school-to-pro kids are without the need of polish and refinement? None. For that matter any rookie even if they were a 5 year college player or a 25 year old international player with 10 years of professional experience.

LeBron wouldn't have played ahead of Eddie Jones either. LeBron is clearly more talented even as a rookie, but newly drafted high school kids just didn't get that type of opportunity back then. T-Mac was playing behind John Wallace and Reggie Slater. KG couldn't start over Christian Laettner until Minnesota traded him. It's not about how good Kobe was compared to Eddie Jones. It's that Eddie Jones was the vet and he was going to start. I don't think you get that.

You just listed 2 HS to pro players who started more games than Kobe did in their rookie seasons, and you also forgot to mention that KG, T-Mac and Oneal all weren't very good in their rookie seasons. They were unfinished products, and were drafted on potential. Lebron on the other hand, was as ready as any college player when he was coming out of HS. Would he have started like he did if it was the 90s? I don't know, but he would have definitely gotten big minutes.

T-Mac was playing as a super sixth man on the Raptors, because they had Carter. T-Mac was there to man the 2nd unit, and score accordingly.

As for O'Neal, he wasn't getting minutes because he was in Portland, playing behind Brian Grant and Sheed, both all-star level players. He got his opportunity with the Pacers, in his 5th or 6th year in the league.

Another factor is, you are speaking strictly rookie years. I am assuming a 3 or 4 year college career. Garnett played big minutes in his second year, started every single game, T-Mac got big minutes his 3rd year, and Shawn Kemp (who didn't even play in college) got big minutes in his 2nd season.

Kobe got big minutes in his 3rd year (32 per game), and only then did he match Lebron's rookie season output (well, not match, but comparable). By Lebron's 3rd season, he was putting up MVP numbers (in fact, Lebron finished #9 in MVP voting in his rookie season, and #6 in his 2nd year, while Kobe didn't even finished top 10 in MVP voting until his 5th season in the league).

Going by per minute output, Kobe didn't even match Lebron's rookie year numbers until his 5th year, that is the 3rd year of him getting big minutes.

So no, it's not probably, it's pretty clear Lebron was way more game ready than Kobe was at their respective ages.

[ambchang]

Well, if Kobe had gone to college he would have learned that NO MEANS NO!





I hope.

He wouldn't have learned. According to a disturbing estimate, 1 in 4 (that is 25%) of college women has experienced some of of sexual assault, with a majority of them unreported. This means that Kobe will probably think it is OK, and got himself in more trouble once he turned pro.

[JamStone]

I listed two high school-to-pro players who started more games than Kobe because they played on lottery teams like LeBron, not playoff teams like Kobe and JO. KG and T-Mac were no more unfinished projects as LeBron was as a rookie. You suggesting otherwise is an opinion up for debate. Vince Carter wasn't on the Raptors in T-Mac's rookie season. Vince was drafted the summer after T-Mac's rookie year.

The team a rookie gets on plays a huge role as to what type of numbers he puts up. Playing next to Shaq, LeBron wouldn't have put up 20 PPG as a rookie either. And again, he wouldn't have even gotten the starts or minutes to come close to what he actually put up on a lottery team where he got the minutes and the carte-blanche free reign to do whatever he wanted. Paul Silas even acknowledged that for much of that season. You put Kobe on a lottery team with that type of freedom, you don't think his overall numbers and per-minute numbers change? Put him on the 1996-97 Raptors before they had T-Mac and Vince and give him 40 minutes a game and the freedom to take as many shots as he wants with no consequence of getting benched for poor shot selection or poor decision making, and what kind of numbers do you think Kobe puts up his rookie year?

You simply ignore the difference in situations of what each player entered into as NBA rookies. And I'm not even saying Kobe was better than LeBron, but the debate would be much more clearly close had they been in similar situations coming into the NBA. LeBron probably would still put up the better numbers, but it would be close. As a rookie, Kobe could have put up some great numbers if he had the same type of situation as LeBron. And let's also not suggest that LeBron's rookie year was historic or legendary. Granted he went to college for one year, but Tyreke Evans put up a better rookie year than LeBron. LeBron wasn't a ready-made superstar his rookie year.

[Medvedenko]

I'll chime in. Jammy with the goods as per usual. I'd say it would be a wash given the shooting ability of Bron back then, however; overall I'd give the nod to the big headband. Kobe would have played for Duke so who knows his output but Coach K would maximize the best out of him.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

question is who'd been a better College student?

My money is on Kobe as his math and language skills were probably superior to Lebron

thinking college basketball players have majors that require math skills

[Koolaid_Man]

While Jam raised some good points, and I appreciate his Kobe slobbering efforts, the answer is unequivocally Lebron. Coming out of the league, Kobe was no where close to an NBA ready player. He had potential, everybody knew that, and that's why he was drafted relatively high in the first round despite being a guard and coming straight from HS (was there ever a straight to pros HS guard in the past?). His shot selection was horrible (he actually improved since his early years), his outside game was suspect (even more so than a HS Lebron), and his defense was uneven. You can see glimpse of his hero-ball tendencies back in the day (air balls vs. Jazz) without the skills, and that mentality would likely not be tamed in college.

It's quite interesting that Jammy is putting all these parameters around Lebron, and yet not around Kobe. Kobe, and every single other player, is subjected to stricter team structure in college. Kobe would require a system that would allow him to showcase his strengths as much as Lebron. In other words, that "but" argument on Lebron was basically moot.

And when you put the direct Lebron to Kobe comparisons as young NBAers, there were really no comparisons. Lebron was better than Eddie Jones ever was even as a rookie, and yet Kobe couldn't start over Jones.

That said, Lebron played in a much more perimeter friendly league right out of HS, while Kobe had to wait till 2000 for the league to change it's rules to favour those next Jordans (Kobe, Carter, McGrady, Iverson) in order to sell tickets.

It's seem to be at the end of the day you're just very angry, mad and upset because Kobe has 5 rings while Duncan only has 4.

[DPG21920]

Kool, that would be like me saying to everyone of your posts that you just appear very, very angry and mad because DPG won The Bet and you are now pink forever while DPG is free to make threads, make fun of you and have you in his pocket. You agree?

[Koolaid_Man]

Kool, that would be like me saying to everyone of your posts that you just appear very, very angry and mad because DPG won The Bet and you are now pink forever while DPG is free to make threads, make fun of you and have you in his pocket. You agree?

You seem to be teething now....but yes baby I agree... whatever will help boost the lil man's ego....

[ambchang]

It's seem to be at the end of the day you're just very angry, mad and upset because Kobe has 5 rings while Duncan only has 4.

Not really, but I would be very angry, mad and upset if I were pinked though.

[HI-FI]

ambchang and latarian already eviscerating s. this really shouldn't be a discussion. Lebron would be better since he's unstoppable alone and doesn't need HOF bigs to take pressure off of him. Lebron is also a better teammate and far more coachable, so I imagine he would've done better in a college system.

[Blake]

LeBron. Not even a thread topic even though it is.

Lebron vs Carmelo and Syracuse would have made college basketball must see tv.

[Koolaid_Man]

Not really, but I would be very angry, mad and upset if I were pinked though.

I wear it as a badge of honor....


if I wanted to I could switch PC's ( I have 3 laptops) get a new modem...and start several troll accounts...but being pink and still aggravating you guys...there is nothing like it in the world...there's nothing like ing over a guy who thought he was ing over you

[Koolaid_Man]

^ but I still apologize to DPG

[silverblk mystix]

He wouldn't have learned. According to a disturbing estimate, 1 in 4 (that is 25%) of college women has experienced some of of sexual assault, with a majority of them unreported. This means that Kobe will probably think it is OK, and got himself in more trouble once he turned pro.

He probably would have just been a great "prison baller" and never made it to the NBA who are we kidding?

[ambchang]

I wear it as a badge of honor....


if I wanted to I could switch PC's ( I have 3 laptops) get a new modem...and start several troll accounts...but being pink and still aggravating you guys...there is nothing like it in the world...there's nothing like ing over a guy who thought he was ing over you

You are one funny guy, I can tell you this.

What are you doing with 3 laptops? Given your self-proclaimed prowess with the ladies, I am surprised you can post hundreds of posts day while pinked, not to mention searching and bumping month old threads. Really, the only people I know who can do what you do are geeks with no friends, let alone female interaction. You must be an extremely efficient time manager.

[HI-FI]

I wear it as a badge of honor....


if I wanted to I could switch PC's ( I have 3 laptops) get a new modem...and start several troll accounts...but being pink and still aggravating you guys...there is nothing like it in the world...there's nothing like ing over a guy who thought he was ing over you

you mean several more troll accounts if we're including Koolaid, Homeland_Security, Sybok, purplengold etc...

[ambchang]

I listed two high school-to-pro players who started more games than Kobe because they played on lottery teams like LeBron, not playoff teams like Kobe and JO. KG and T-Mac were no more unfinished projects as LeBron was as a rookie. You suggesting otherwise is an opinion up for debate. Vince Carter wasn't on the Raptors in T-Mac's rookie season. Vince was drafted the summer after T-Mac's rookie year.

Given only lottery teams draft high, of course all these high school prodigies played for lottery teams. Kobe gets to play for the Lakers due to a trade, and there really isn't any other comparisons. But then you get to mention McGrady playing behind two scrubs, which really confused me as it was clearly a way of saying rookies don't get heavy minutes, even when the only other options were scrubs, so you really lost me there.

That said, KG and T-Mac were not NBA ready as Lebron when drafted, it wasn't really a point of debate. You attempting to spin it is simply another shot at revisionist history.
Lebron's draft report coming out of HS: http://www.thedraftreview.com/index....sk=view&id=662
Smooth player, effortless, unbelievable ability passing the ball, are not words to describe an unready product.

Tracy McGrady coming out of HS (online draft reports weren't that common then, but this is the general consensus of what Tracy's game was): http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1.../scout/sg.html
The first description: Another high school player with tremendous physical ability but not much of a clue about how to really play the game of basketball.
Offensively, he has great potential with his shooting. (note the word potential)
Defensively, he again has great potential. (note again the word potential)

Garnett: http://www.celticstown.com/2010/06/0...outing-report/
The words are more positive, but he did talk mostly about potential, and compared Garnett to NBA players when they were in HS.

The team a rookie gets on plays a huge role as to what type of numbers he puts up. Playing next to Shaq, LeBron wouldn't have put up 20 PPG as a rookie either. And again, he wouldn't have even gotten the starts or minutes to come close to what he actually put up on a lottery team where he got the minutes and the carte-blanche free reign to do whatever he wanted. Paul Silas even acknowledged that for much of that season. You put Kobe on a lottery team with that type of freedom, you don't think his overall numbers and per-minute numbers change? Put him on the 1996-97 Raptors before they had T-Mac and Vince and give him 40 minutes a game and the freedom to take as many shots as he wants with no consequence of getting benched for poor shot selection or poor decision making, and what kind of numbers do you think Kobe puts up his rookie year?

The question is whether Kobe was even ready to be put on a lottery team, play 40 minutes and take whatever shot he wants. He likely wasn't, as his game wasn't even close to what it was to Lebron's during their rookie season.

You simply ignore the difference in situations of what each player entered into as NBA rookies. And I'm not even saying Kobe was better than LeBron, but the debate would be much more clearly close had they been in similar situations coming into the NBA. LeBron probably would still put up the better numbers, but it would be close. As a rookie, Kobe could have put up some great numbers if he had the same type of situation as LeBron. And let's also not suggest that LeBron's rookie year was historic or legendary. Granted he went to college for one year, but Tyreke Evans put up a better rookie year than LeBron. LeBron wasn't a ready-made superstar his rookie year.

I am not ignoring them, I am saying that even if the situations are the same, Kobe would not have the same success had as a rookie. Kobe got free reigns his 3rd year in the league, and even then did he barely matched Lebron's rookie numbers, after two years of practicing in an NBA environment, Kobe was almost as good as Lebron fresh off of HS, this is when both players were full time starters and got the green light.

[baseline bum]

What's Duke's policy on raping white women though?

[Koolaid_Man]

You are one funny guy, I can tell you this.

What are you doing with 3 laptops? Given your self-proclaimed prowess with the ladies, I am surprised you can post hundreds of posts day while pinked, not to mention searching and bumping month old threads. Really, the only people I know who can do what you do are geeks with no friends, let alone female interaction. You must be an extremely efficient time manager.

Bingo...my day consists of working out, ing around on Spurstalk, managing my investments online with a separate laptop, and doing some other other with my Asian friends with my 3rd laptop...now from the time we last spoke...which was earlier today...I've managed to take another show (so far that's two today) get a blow-job, eat some pussy and beat it up...I followed-up that up with a Salmon Salad and some good ole Canadian Ice Wine . Now I will around with you guys some more and then go out on another date later tonight...afterward I might get some more pussy if I'm feeling up to it...I will Tivo the Lakers game...if something changes with my plans tonight I will let you know... ok bubba

tomorrow I'm getting my ride detailed...and maybe I will perform another dancing bear "style" solo for some mature lady friends...some of my sexy dances are online but you'll never find them..unless you pay...

[ambchang]

Bingo...my day consists of working out, ing around on Spurstalk, managing my investments online with a separate laptop, and doing some other other with my Asian friends with my 3rd laptop...now from the time we last spoke...which was earlier today...I've managed to take another show (so far that's two today) get a blow-job, eat some pussy and beat it up...I followed-up that up with a Salmon Salad and some good ole Canadian Ice Wine . Now I will around with you guys some more and then go out on another date later tonight...afterward I might get some more pussy if I'm feeling up to it...I will Tivo the Lakers game...if something changes with my plans tonight I will let you know... ok bubba

tomorrow I'm getting my ride detailed...and maybe I will perform another dancing bear "style" solo for some mature lady friends...some of my sexy dances are online but you'll never find them..unless you pay...

You did this all like how I buy a Ferrari a day.

[Koolaid_Man]

You did this all like how I buy a Ferrari a day.

no...like you can't buy a Ferrari in a day... I'l lbe dam if you have a nicer car than me...

[ambchang]

no...like you can't buy a Ferrari in a day... I'l lbe dam if you have a nicer car than me...

Of course you do. You also knew Harry potter and won a wrestling match against Conan the barbarian.