Mavs: Why cant the '2nd best PF of all-time' even lead his team to the playoffs ?

[diego]

point taken, but then again outside of duncan none of the defensive guys I listed are near kg's caliber, on either end of the court. Maybe, maybe you could count pre lakers howard and chandler, if you only consider D.

whereas on O, i think you certainly can consider several guys as being on dirk's level, and just from the active players that actually proved it:
lebron
kobe
pierce
duncan
wade

they all showed they could be their teams offensive focal point on their way to a 'ship.
and I would add players like Durant and Melo (despite despising both!) to that list w/o even thinking about it, because even w/o being champions they have shown they can carry their team's offense at an exceptionally high level.

so lets exclude duncan, kg and dirk from this and we get:

lebron
kobe
pierce
wade
durant

vs

howard
chandler

it seems to me like its easier to find the offensive player than the defensive one, at least for the past 5-6 years...

[Phillip]

KG needed a closer like Pierce to close for him, because yes he isnt dominant in the clutch. No shame in that though since Shaq had Kobe and Wade close out games for him because of his FT woes. Manu closed games for the TD since like '05. Doesnt ing mean Dirk is better than any of them.

Granted, guards have an advantage in general in crunchtime of games. However, even if Kobe or Wade or Manu was taking the final shots, generally the offense in clutch time was still being ran heavily through Shaq or Duncan. They would frequently receive the ball, get extra defensive attention, then kick out to someone who had plenty of space to get off a high percentage shot. Perfect example was 06 Mavs/Spurs series. Duncan receives the ball, Terry doubles him off of Manu, and Manu has a wide open 3 to take a 3 point lead with like 30 seconds to go.

KG rarely received the kind of defensive attention that Duncan and Shaq got, and especially not the kind of attention Dirk still draws to this day.

[Phillip]

whereas on O, i think you certainly can consider several guys as being on dirk's level, and just from the active players that actually proved it:
lebron
kobe
pierce
duncan
wade

Yes, Pierce, Duncan and Wade have all done it at a point in their careers, but can they do it right now? No. It's kind of silly to list all those people who are defensive anchors right now, then try to throw in people who haven't been able to put a team on their back offensively through an entire playoff run for years now in a list to try to prove your point. And at the point when Dirk won a championship, none of those guys even then seemed to have that ability. At that point in time, Kobe and Dirk were the only two in the league who both had proven they could do it, and were currently capable of doing it.

[FkLA]

Neat.

Want to see something neater?

Since Dirk and Terry has been playing together, only in one season (last year when Dirk was dealing with injuries and taking a reduced role) has Terry scored more points than Dirk has in clutch time. Even then, Dirk's +/- stats were noticably higher than Terry's in clutch time.

So is it so much that Terry was the true closer? Or that Dirk was being excessively complimentary of his teammates (as he has been known to do) to keep their confidence as high as possible?

links?

Either way it doesnt mean it was uncommon for Terry to take big shots. Which is funny considering you guys love to rag on KG because Spree and Cassell took some late game shots. Not to mention Pierce had to close him out to a championship.

[Phillip]

and I would add players like Durant and Melo (despite despising both!) to that list w/o even thinking about it, because even w/o being champions they have shown they can carry their team's offense at an exceptionally high level.

until they face an elite playoff defense. they both have done their work against crappy to average defenses, then wither when faced with a strong defense.

lebron
kobe
pierce
wade
durant

vs

howard
chandler

it seems to me like its easier to find the offensive player than the defensive one, at least for the past 5-6 years...

um, no. You really think that many of those players listed earlier are incapable of being a defensive anchor for a championship team? I'd say most if not all are fully capable of doing so. If Luc Longley could be the big-man for a 3-peat, I'm sure those guys are fully capable of doing so as well.

[Phillip]

links?

Either way it doesnt mean it was uncommon for Terry to take big shots. Which is funny considering you guys love to rag on KG because Spree and Cassell took some late game shots. Not to mention Pierce had to close him out to a championship.

Lazy ass. It's called google.

http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClu...&sortOrder=DES



Um, no we are not ragging on KG for allowing Pierce, Allen, Spree and Cassell to take big shots, because even MJ had to give up shots to Steve Kerr and John Paxson. The ragging comes from the fact that they were the ones making basically all the big shots in the playoffs. Seriously, without going and digging up a ton of research, how many big-time, clutch shots can anyone here really remember KG hitting? The only series I really remember him having any kind of standout, memorable performances was against the Kings in the 04 Playoffs.

lol it might even be possible that Dirk hit more big-time clutch shots in the 11 Finals alone, than KG has in his entire playoff career

[midnightpulp]

Neat.

Want to see something neater?

Since Dirk and Terry has been playing together, only in one season (last year when Dirk was dealing with injuries and taking a reduced role) has Terry scored more points than Dirk has in clutch time. Even then, Dirk's +/- stats were noticably higher than Terry's in clutch time.

So is it so much that Terry was the true closer? Or that Dirk was being excessively complimentary of his teammates (as he has been known to do) to keep their confidence as high as possible?

at FKLA referencing player quotes as evidence of anything.

"Amare is the best bigman in the league."

- Shaq

In the interest of boosting team morale, a good teammate will say things like that even if they don't believe it themselves. Dirk's comment was a prime example of that. Unfortunately, the stats don't support Dirk's comment. In 2011, Dirk averaged 3 more points in clutch time, shot twice as many FTs, and was assisted on 39% of his shots, while Terry was assisted on 59% of his attempts, suggesting that the majority of Terry's looks were created by other players.

Terry was definitely one of a clutch time second option, but he was never, at any time, the Mavericks' primary closer.

[FkLA]

Granted, guards have an advantage in general in crunchtime of games. However, even if Kobe or Wade or Manu was taking the final shots, generally the offense in clutch time was still being ran heavily through Shaq or Duncan. They would frequently receive the ball, get extra defensive attention, then kick out to someone who had plenty of space to get off a high percentage shot. Perfect example was 06 Mavs/Spurs series. Duncan receives the ball, Terry doubles him off of Manu, and Manu has a wide open 3 to take a 3 point lead with like 30 seconds to go.

KG rarely received the kind of defensive attention that Duncan and Shaq got, and especially not the kind of attention Dirk still draws to this day.

You are such a homer, man.

First, yeah KG wasnt as good as TD or Shaq but neither was Dirk. Thats not a knock on him seeing as theyre Top 10 all-time. But he still garnered a load of attention, unless you think the Wolves were going to Wally/Troy Hudson/Ricky Davis down the stretch all those years. Him not having a solid #2 to open up things for him other than in 2004 and when he arrived in Boston probably has something to do with his shortcomings in the clutch as well. In 2004 he was fine in the clutch, same when in Boston. Sure Cassell and Pierce took some big shots but again I dont see what the big deal with that is, when the two best big men of our generation routinely deferred in the clutch as well.

[Phillip]

at FKLA referencing player quotes as evidence of anything.

"Amare is the best bigman in the league."

- Shaq

back in 2002 Shaq even said Dirk is the 2nd best player in the league. I guess that really meant something, eh?

[Phillip]

You are such a homer, man.

First, yeah KG wasnt as good as TD or Shaq but neither was Dirk.

I never said Dirk was as good of a player as TD or Shaq. Just that KG never came close to receiving the defensive attention that those 3 did.

But he still garnered a load of attention, unless you think the Wolves were going to Wally/Troy Hudson/Ricky Davis down the stretch all those years. Him not having a solid #2 to open up things for him other than in 2004 and when he arrived in Boston probably has something to do with his shortcomings in the clutch as well. In 2004 he was fine in the clutch, same when in Boston. Sure Cassell and Pierce took some big shots but again I dont see what the big deal with that is, when the two best big men of our generation routinely deferred in the clutch as well.

The two best big men routinely had offense ran through them in the clutch. KG generally was known for shying away from the ball, pretty much only touching it in crunch time when he was given a wide open mid-range jumper, which somehow he was also widely known for consistently bricking once it was clutch time, despite being an otherwise reliable mid-range shooter.

[FkLA]

Yeah, lets take the statements of a loud and obnoxious guy like Shaq the same way we take the statements of a soft-spoken, upstanding citizen like Diggler.

[Phillip]

It's still funny how adamant FKLA is here about his opinion, when almost no one is backing him up.

Yet, there have been plenty of Spurfans who have came in here, and basically disputed his bull claims.

[FkLA]

I never said Dirk was as good of a player as TD or Shaq. Just that KG never came close to receiving the defensive attention that those 3 did.



The two best big men routinely had offense ran through them in the clutch. KG generally was known for shying away from the ball, pretty much only touching it in crunch time when he was given a wide open mid-range jumper, which somehow he was also widely known for consistently bricking once it was clutch time, despite being an otherwise reliable mid-range shooter.

Its funny that you mention that considering how Dirk himself went through stages when he deferred, and was widely considered soft prior to 2011. But no, KG never deferred to the extent you are claiming when he had guys like Wally as his #2. The offense probably ran through him more than TD or Shaq in the clutch actually, since he didnt have Kobe or Manu at his disposal. He routinely deferred to Cassell and Pierce, but again why is that such a big deal considering how good those two players are in crunchtime.

It's still funny how adamant FKLA is here about his opinion, when almost no one is backing him up.

Yet, there have been plenty of Spurfans who have came in here, and basically disputed his bull claims.

making fun of gnsf all the time, but conveniently using them now as 'proof'

Spurfan has always loved themselves some Dirk. Probably cause he is a nice guy all about class while KG is a loud asshole. Same reason they detest Terry. Follow your own advice though and do a quick google search...forums or professional writers/columnists. Youd be surprised how many people rate KG higher and dont put Dirk anywhere near #2 PF all-time.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, lets take the statements of a loud and obnoxious guy like Shaq the same way we take the statements of a soft-spoken, upstanding citizen like Diggler.

Um. In my experience, soft-spoken, upstanding citizens are the people most likely to be over-complimentary.

[diego]

It's kind of silly to list all those people who are defensive anchors right now, then try to throw in people who haven't been able to put a team on their back offensively through an entire playoff run for years now in a list to try to prove your point. And at the point when Dirk won a championship, none of those guys even then seemed to have that ability. At that point in time, Kobe and Dirk were the only two in the league who both had proven they could do it, and were currently capable of doing it.

well, a lot of the anchors i listed are not really great defensive anchors RIGHT NOW, but either were or will be, but i included them anyway (perkins, bogut, favors, davis, gasol, hibbert..)
and if we said proven championship caliber, the list drops to 3.

in 2011 I think lebron, kobe, pierce, and wade were *capable* of doing it. the fact that 3 of them didnt do it and dirk did obviously swings it in dirk's favor but my post was more about the availability of defensive / offensive players. I think its a reality of the league nowadays (because of rule changes and play styles) that it is easier to find prolific offensive players than prolific defensive players, let alone the "anchor" types who can improve the entire team's defense...

[FkLA]

well, a lot of the anchors i listed are not really great defensive anchors RIGHT NOW, but either were or will be, but i included them anyway (perkins, bogut, favors, davis, gasol, hibbert..)
and if we said proven championship caliber, the list drops to 3.

in 2011 I think lebron, kobe, pierce, and wade were *capable* of doing it. the fact that 3 of them didnt do it and dirk did obviously swings it in dirk's favor but my post was more about the availability of defensive / offensive players. I think its a reality of the league nowadays (because of rule changes and play styles) that it is easier to find prolific offensive players than prolific defensive players, let alone the "anchor" types who can improve the entire team's defense...

Great points, diego.

Not only that man but these fools make it seem like the only thing Dirk needed in 2011 was Chandler. Every starter in their line-up was better defensively than Dirk. The shooters got hot, guys like Peja played out of their minds considering their previous playoff history. Turtle Head for as much as he got for not being a capable #2 played like one. Not to mention The King completely choking helped alot too. Everything went right, the likelihood of all those things repeating with or without Chandler wouldnt have been high.

[FkLA]

Um. In my experience, soft-spoken, upstanding citizens are the people most likely to be over-complimentary.

Arent you the same guy that scoffs me for using my own experience with illegals?

But yea because of his humility Dirk routinely says stupid like 'Bynum is the best center in the NBA' or 'DeAndre Jordan is the best center in the West'.

[diego]

um, no. You really think that many of those players listed earlier are incapable of being a defensive anchor for a championship team? I'd say most if not all are fully capable of doing so. If Luc Longley could be the big-man for a 3-peat, I'm sure those guys are fully capable of doing so as well.

please, as if those bulls defense was carried by longley. you know perfectly well who did.

I guess fisher is a championship caliber playmaker because he was the lakers starting pg for their 3peat. stupid

[Phillip]

Great points, diego.

Not only that man but these fools make it seem like the only thing Dirk needed in 2011 was Chandler. Every starter in their line-up was better defensively than Dirk. The shooters got hot, guys like Peja played out of their minds considering their previous playoff history. Turtle Head for as much as he got for not being a capable #2 played like one. Not to mention The King completely choking helped alot too. Everything went right, the likelihood of all those things repeating with or without Chandler wouldnt have been high.

No one said anything about Dirk not needing help. Every champion needs help. But Dirk stepped up through the entire playoffs in a way that has only been seen twice in the last 15 years, by Timmy in 03, and Lebron last year.

lol mad

[midnightpulp]

Arent you the same guy that scoffs me for using my own experience with illegals?

But yea because of his humility Dirk routinely says stupid like 'Bynum is the best center in the NBA' or 'DeAndre Jordan is the best center in the West'.

Humble people tend to be over-complimentary. It's a trait most humble personalities share.

[Phillip]

please, as if those bulls defense was carried by longley. you know perfectly well who did.

I guess fisher is a championship caliber playmaker because he was the lakers starting pg for their 3peat. stupid

I didn't say he carried the defense, did I? I just said he was the man in the middle, and he did a very solid job of doing what he needed to. You mean to tell me that many of those centers you listed couldn't do what was asked of him? They can't clog the paint, grab rebounds, and do the dirty work? That is no different than what Chandler did for the Mavs. He clogged the paint, grabbed rebounds, and did dirty work. But he wasn't exactly running around shutting people down. That was Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson. Now I'm not saying all of those centers could have replaced Chandler, and helped the Mavs win a le, but plenty of them absolutely could have.

You really think Hibbert, Gasol, or Noah couldn't help take a championship contending team like Miami's or OKC's defense to another level? Come on now.

[monosylab1k]

Well you gotta admire Fkla's stubborn resilience. Even in the face of massive bukkake's, he just wipes his eyes and asks for more.

[monosylab1k]

lol KG couldn't win a le without big daddy perkins manning the middle for him.

[monosylab1k]

So KG needed Pierce to hit clutch shots and Perkins to D up the middle for him. What was KG doing?

[monosylab1k]

"Pierce hit the clutch shots but KG was their #1 guy "

Finals MVP: Paul Pierce

"Dirk needed Tyson and Jet to win him a le "

Finals MVP: Dirk Nowitzki