NBA: Quick, who is the only top 10 player to win less than half the Finals MVPs?

[midnightpulp]

Right. He'd be hiding under the covers with Wilt, West, Baylor, Worthy, et al. & we'd be under there with them instead of here raisin' & checkin' assholes.

& furthermore, if Magic hadn't set that compass for future generations we'd a been forced to take cover under the covers in June '10. But, Kobe had Magic's template and executed it. Ipso facto:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old bag Duncan: 4

Duncan also followed the arrow on that compass after Jackson tried to send him cowering under the covers with the asterisk talk. Media was on him. Pop was befuddled. And the Lakers were toting 'em. The count was 3>1, and it looked like that gap would remain eternal. You were probably over there on AZ central paying us no mind. We were nothing. An afterthought.

Then Aught 3 came around. Duncan followed the compass, let it lead him right outta the darkness and into the bright lights of a Hollywood spring. 37 and 16 later, the 3 peat was vanquished. Soon after, Daddy was packing for Miami beach, Kobe was in Colorado, and Phil Jackson was writing books. Just like that.

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Duncan also followed the arrow on that compass after Jackson tried to send him cowering under the covers with the asterisk talk. Media was on him. Pop was befuddled. And the Lakers were toting 'em. The count was 3>1, and it looked like that gap would remain eternal. You were probably over there on AZ central paying us no mind. We were nothing. An afterthought.

Then Aught 3 came around. Duncan followed the compass, let it lead him right outta the darkness and into the bright lights of a Hollywood spring. 37 and 16 later, the 3 peat was vanquished. Soon after, Daddy was packing for Miami beach, Kobe was in Colorado, and Phil Jackson was writing books. Just like that.

I've been here what,,,since that that little squirt for Orlando missed that bunny over Kobe in '09? This is the first time you've ever cited such meandering & verbiage. Of course, it's completely marinated in my prose. I wrote the in' book on such matters so I take it as a compliment. But, it's coming from your mouth and not your head or heart, Midst. You haven't got a trail of tears like I have. It's kind of sad, but, it true. And it's only sad because I came thru it and out the other side into the light. You're k & span. You've never had anyone 14 inches up your ass for 25 years. Be grateful for that and at the same time, lament it.

[midnightpulp]

I've been here what,,,since that that little squirt for Orlando missed that bunny over Kobe in '09? This is the first time you've ever cited such meandering & verbiage. Of course, it's completely marinated in my prose. I wrote the in' book on such matters so I take it as a compliment. But, it's coming from your mouth and not your head or heart, Midst. You haven't got a trail of tears like I have. It's kind of sad, but, it true. And it's only sad because I came thru it and out the other side into the light. You're k & span. You've never had anyone 14 inches up your ass for 25 years. Be grateful for that and at the same time, lament it.

I know. Don't you remember me citing that you're en led? You're en led to the count. To the bragging. To the rolling of barrels. The Lakers were the Boston Red Sox of the NBA to the Celtics Yankees until '85, and you endured those failures since the Lakers came out to the Coast. West's win over NY was a blip on the radar. Flash in the pan. And soon it was back to the same-old-same-old. Celtics winning. Lakers trying to find their ass. Older Lakers fans know heartbreak.

But these young guys who came around when the gettin' was good (kool, et al), after the coin landed heads that brought Magic, their trail of tears are as dry as the Mojave.

And they ain't in' en led. No way.

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I know. Don't you remember me citing that you're en led? You're en led to the count. To the bragging. To the rolling of barrels. The Lakers were the Boston Red Sox of the NBA to the Celtics Yankees until '85, and you endured those failures since the Lakers came out to the Coast. West's win over NY was a blip on the radar. Flash in the pan. And soon it was back to the same-old-same-old. Celtics winning. Lakers trying to find their ass. Older Lakers fans know heartbreak.

But these young guys who came around when the gettin' was good (kool, et al), after the coin landed heads that brought Magic, their trail of tears are as dry as the Mojave.

And they ain't in' en led. No way.

You have to grandfather them in, Midst. Same thing with your people, your johnny come lately's. I don't judge or grudge fandom's. It's too precious. There is some junk in my trunk from your heritage. I still see James Silas in the newspaper box scores. I still see Tarkanian kneeling courtside, bringing Sweet Pea into the NBA in direct repudiation of the governing powers. I still see Bob Hill, a handsome man I wanted to look like so badly. I remember The Whopper.

Let 'em go, Midst.

[midnightpulp]

You have to grandfather them in, Midst. Same thing with your people, your johnny come lately's. I don't judge or grudge fandom's. It's too precious. There is some junk in my trunk from your heritage. I still see James Silas in the newspaper box scores. I still see Tarkanian kneeling courtside, bringing Sweet Pea into the NBA in direct repudiation of the governing powers. I still see Bob Hill, a handsome man I wanted to look like so badly. I remember The Whopper.

Let 'em go, Midst.

Fair enough.

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Fair enough.

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

[midnightpulp]

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

Yes you will. Babby won't get that pick and you can have a good night's sleep, which I take it you haven't had in months.

[midnightpulp]

Midst, am I going to be in the Charter 16 tonite, or not? Give it to me straight. Por favor.

Yes you will. Babby won't get that pick and you can have a good night's sleep, which I take it you haven't had in months.

[Killakobe81]

Mid channeling his "inner" Cully ...

Imitation the sincerest form of ...

[ambchang]

1. Media or not Magic felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself. IF he were to console himself with winshares or insuliate himself with excuses like Amb gives PAu ...maybe he does not win.

I doubt it, and I have absolutely no idea how you can somehow allude to Magic willing the Lakers to build a great team. He didn't do it. He did his share, of course, he led the Lakers as well in 85, but to say that he somehow felt it and came out in 1985 to redeem himself is beyond ridiculous. How does a player will the franchise to draft Worthy #1? How does a player will a franchise to get guys like Cooper, McAdoo and Scott? The player did not do it, management did.

2. Sure star players are important cogs but there is a price, a responsibilty/accountability that you have as the best player. I used to teach my better PG's that all the time. It is one of the most valid criticisms of Kobe ...(besides shot selection) IS that just because you can score easier than everyone else does not mean it is ALWAYS in your (team's) best interest to take that approach. I dont play Pyschologist but Kobe has battled against that impulse his whole career where he feels his shot even when the fo cus on defense is better than someone elses ..

I doubt that as well. Kobe has been notorious for making questionable decisions on shots.

3. Stats like winshares are horsecrap to a degree ... because using Lebron as an example no way they lose 19 more games. Heat have won games with 2 or 3 of their best players missing. But you could argue the things he does like making a hockey assist pass or drawing double or triple teams when he DOES play have such a HUGE impact on winning games and spreading a positive vibe on that team the he impacts that team even when he does not play

I would actually like to clarify, a winshare of 19 games doesn't mean the Heat will win 47 games instead of 66 without James. The team dynamic would change, and the system will likely be different. What the figure of 19 said though, is that of the 66 Heat wins, James was responsible for about 19 of them, that's it.

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;6486690]But again using your examples I dont need win shares to tell me any of that. Lebron is amazing especially last playoffs but without key contributions from Battier, Wade, Bosh to even Miller and Chalmers OKC has a legit shot at an upset or they lose to the Celts. Stats alone will show that those guys hit key buckets but without watching the game and seeing the momentum changes etc ...you lose some of that. But who got most of the blame in 2011 for their loss? Who got most of the praise in 2012 and rightfully so? Doesnt have to be THAT complicated. My problem with any stat they are ALMOST ALWAYS used as a weapon to argue what you already believe. People juke, cherry-pick stats just like non stat guys do when they argue thier side. [/quote[

It's because James had a 3 game lead on Wade in WS in 2011, but absolutely disappeared in the finals. That's why he got the blame.

In 2012, James almost doubled Wade (the clear #2) in WS, in both the regular season and the playoffs for the le win, that's why should get, the most credit.

As for Amb Shaq was dominant, Pau, Bynum and Lamar effective and pretty efficient. But you confuse me when you give love to a guy like Moses (dominant) or the Celts front-line also dominant) but call a front-line with undersized, injury-prone or skinny front court bigss (Lamar Drew and PAu) dominat. Sure they were one of the better ones in a watered down era for big men but dominant? Nicca, please!! aS we discussed a few weeks back David RObinson much less KAreem would of dominated any of the two best bigs you can find of this era by themselves.

Oh, no doubt, and this is where compe ion and your team makeup comes into play. Will the 09 and 10 Lakers win a championship in the 80s and 90s? Highly unlikely, and it's precisely because their frontline will not be as comparatively dominant. Read it again, the 09 and 10 Lakers won because of their frontline. Their frontline was far and away better than any other team's in the same era.

SO I get the deconstructing of Kobe ...your stats support your case ...whatever. I also dont need to tear down Pau, Drew Odom or even Shaq. All were all-stars at least and Shaq one of the most physical dominant players I have ever seen. But when a "dominant" big cant lead a playoff team to one win in 3 straight years you are NOT dominant. Lamar led a Heat team (Wade's rooke year IIRC) to ONE playoff win. All that filibustering still sounds like excuse making to me ...Pau very good, far from dominant.

But he can make a strong case tonight ...

So what does it speak to a supposed #2 SG in NBA history not being able to lead his team past the 1st round twice, and missing the playoffs entirely one year? Hakeem's team wasn't that good in the late 80s, but so what? He was still dominant. Shaq was swept multiple times in his career, but he was still dominant. It has everything to do with matchups and your team.

[Leetonidas]

gotta disagree prime Marion was a beast and definitely a better player than Lamar Odom at any point in his career

[Killakobe81]

1. Magic didnt get blamed? See another issue I have is when outsiders try and tell me about my team that I have followed for most of my 30 plus years ... Magic was killed nationally and locally Look here:

During the NBA finals last spring, as the Boston Celtics first tormented Johnson and finally humiliated him, the newly purchased house in Bel Air was Magic's castle. No furniture had yet arrived, so he would often sit for hours in empty rooms, alone in the dark and riven with doubt, trying to figure out how his life had suddenly gone so dreadfully wrong.After the Lakers lost the championship to the Celtics in seven games, Johnson found his reputation in such disrepair that L.A. fans were discussing his chances of making a "comeback" this season. "People say he has to come back this year and prove himself all over again, which is a joke," says Lakers coach Pat Riley. "When you play in the ultimate game, there's winning and there's misery. For us it was misery."

Magic had failed in a way that seemed to diminish him so con uously that earlier this season even the Celtics' Kevin McHale referred to him as "Tragic Johnson." It counted for little that against Boston Johnson had set a record for assists in a playoff series with 95—averaging 15.2 over the last five games, including a championship series-record 21 in Game 3—and had averaged 18 points a game. The Lakers had kicked away chances to sweep the series with costly mistakes in Games 2 and 4, then bungled the job again at the end of Game 7. "We made five mistakes that cost us the series," Johnson says, "and I contributed to three of them."
The first mistake came with the score tied at the end of regulation in Game 2, when he dribbled the clock down until there was no time to get off a shot. Riley claims Johnson followed his instructions. "The other players never did anything to help him," he says. "They stood out on the perimeter and didn't get open. Kareem [Abdul-Jabbar] moved with 12 seconds left, which meant he was open too early. Magic got blamed." Boston won, 124-121 in overtime.

Whatever hurt Johnson felt then was only to intensify as the summer went on. He was stunned at the way he was carved up by the press that had once doted on him. He was particularly wounded by the suggestions that, with the championship at stake, he had choked. "I sat back when it was over," Johnson says, "and I thought, 'Man, did we just lose one of the great playoff series of all time, or didn't we?' This was one of the greatest in history. Yet all you read was how bad I was." A headline that appeared on a column in The Los Angeles Times asked EARVIN, WHAT HAPPENED TO MAGIC? A month later, a columnist for The Los Angeles Herald-Examiner referred to Johnson as "the tarnished superstar" and "the goat of the series," and pointed out that with the world watching him, and "right there against his arch rival, Larry Bird, he failed.""Those wounds from last June stayed open all summer," says Riley. "Now the misery has subsided, but it never leaves your mind completely. Magic is very sensitive to what people think about him, and in his own mind I think he heard those questions over and over again to the point where he began to rationalize and say, 'Maybe I do have to concentrate more.' I think the whole experience has made him grow up in a lot of ways."



That was the NBA I grew up with no excuses no looking for winshares to explain how much he did ... he lost. PERIOD.

From SI 1985 CLick here for more

2. Wait, what?! I said Kobe's shot selection and willingness to take a tough shot and think it is better than his team-mates is something he has battled his whole career ... so do you disagree with that? (by battle I mean struggle with... but hey you the one that tries to play Dr.Phil) If so, just say agreed. Remember the jedi-mind trick only works on the weak minded.

3. Lebron only responsible for 19 of them?! Cuz winshares says so? LMAO and GTFO you make winshares sound worse the more you explain it ...

4. You can try and spin it now but you used the word dominant, maybe you meant they just won because of the front-line ... but YOU Said Kobe could not win without a DOMINANT front-line. Tell me smart guy if Kobe is a ball-hog, taking shots aways from the DOMINANT front-line ...how can they be dominant?

5. Like I said I dont have to tell you "what it means" ...cuz I dont care ...that is what you do. He failed in 2004-2008. He failed with "dominant" Pau and with "dominant" Lamar Odom LMAO ...but he won with those same non dominant guys as well as with Shaq. PEriod. You can look for hidden deeper meanings but those are the facts.


Just like ...

Boiled down ...

5>4 ...

[Killakobe81]

Cully I see you in here boy ... this boy AMb acting like he dont know the history ... he old school trying to be new school with the excuse making winshares crap and harping on team-mates and matchups.

And my mistake Amb you said "imposing" not dominant it was FkLA that used "dominant" i stand corrected but not sure either is accurate though. Efffective yes very effective ...

DOMINANT
IMPOSING


Who ever looked at Pau or Odom and thought IMPOSING?!

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The large post second above...^Good stuff, Killa. Makes it almost palpable. I do not know how that man came all the way back. It's unfathomable. He loved the quest. He didn't fear it as West and Wilt had.

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It scares me anew reading it like that. The Celtics were trying mightily to "assassinate" Magic. They knew, they were wise enough to recognize a messiah who could lead us past them. Those ers knew and were ruthlessly trying to stop it.

And Magic knew too. You wonder if the ingratiating grin was to bring them in closer, to get them to let their guard down, to take the edge off their hate & panic down a notch so he (Magic) could get inside and finish it.

It's a great story, Killa. It only gets better as the decades unfold.

[Killakobe81]

The large post second above...^Good stuff, Killa. Makes it almost palpable. I do not know how that man came all the way back. It's unfathomable. He loved the quest. He didn't fear it as West and Wilt had.

I was just a youngster but that loss hurt. My sports hero had failed against our most bitter rival giving them #15 at OUR expense ...

[ambchang]

Not sure where anybody said Magic was hung out to dry by the media. It sure did happen, they called for his head after Westhead was fired, and then when he choked away the 1984 Finals, but to say that the reason he won the 1985 championship was because he was trying to prove himself is foolish. He won the championship because the Lakers were good enough. The idea that Lakers wouldn't have won the 1985 le, or Magic would somehow put in less effort to win the 1985 le, if he wasn't skewed by the media is ridiculous and an insult to Magic himself.

[ambchang]

And the Lakers front line in 09 10 wasn't dominant in the historical sense, but compared to other teams in 09 10, you can bet your Kobe memorabilia that it was.

[Killakobe81]

It scares me anew reading it like that. The Celtics were trying mightily to "assassinate" Magic. They knew, they were wise enough to recognize a messiah who could lead us past them. Those ers knew and were ruthlessly trying to stop it.

And Magic knew too. You wonder if the ingratiating grin was to bring them in closer, to get them to let their guard down, to take the edge off their hate & panic down a notch so he (Magic) could get inside and finish it.

It's a great story, Killa. It only gets better as the decades unfold.

No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

[Killakobe81]

Not sure where anybody said Magic was hung out to dry by the media. It sure did happen, they called for his head after Westhead was fired, and then when he choked away the 1984 Finals, but to say that the reason he won the 1985 championship was because he was trying to prove himself is foolish. He won the championship because the Lakers were good enough. The idea that Lakers wouldn't have won the 1985 le, or Magic would somehow put in less effort to win the 1985 le, if he wasn't skewed by the media is ridiculous and an insult to Magic himself.

Read the article it pretty much says so or is implied by him and the writer. I have read all his books including the Business one, believe me it had a part.. Listen to Mj's HOF speech. if you dont think that stuff drives elite players you dont get what makes them tick, Amb and it's a shame. Sure it is in them but to get to the highest level you need that extra fuel ...

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No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

It wasn't a team sport before '85. As you stated the crucifixtion of Magic was attempted by the Celtics in association with Media. After '85 and the confirmation in '87 Media had to give up the ghost and get in bed with Magic. They had nary other choice. The Celtics were kaput, instead of them murdering Magic, he had turned the gun on them and put them down. As the numbers quaked and grew thru the years the need to open another front by Media became necessary. Can't stop it, but, I won't aspire to it. Uh, uh. I was there when that was all there was. And that's how I'm goin' out. We started that way. And we're endin' that way.

[ambchang]

Read the article it pretty much says so or is implied by him and the writer. I have read all his books including the Business one, believe me it had a part.. Listen to Mj's HOF speech. if you dont think that stuff drives elite players you dont get what makes them tick, Amb and it's a shame. Sure it is in them but to get to the highest level you need that extra fuel ...

They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Same with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

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They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Same with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

[Killakobe81]

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

Amen Cully.
Again Im not saying those guys don't win ANY les without that crucifixition but look at the NBA since 1980:

1. Lakers beat the Sixers TWICE (80 & 82) in the Finals before Moses brought DR.J to the Promised land and they swept us in 1983
2. Celts beat us in 84 which spaked Magic's revenge in '85 which sparked Bird's last great year in 1986
3. Lakers and Celts beat on Pistons in the late 80's and Isiah paid them back in 89 & 90 fighting off MJ along the way ...
4. MJ made the whole world play for the Pistons disrespect ...
5. Shaq used the sweeps you spoke of earlier to help lead the Lakers back to glory ...
6. Dirk's 2006 helped him in 2011 no doubt about it sparking ...
7. Lebron to bury his demons
8. Kobe heard the whispers much like they are spoken here ... that he could not win without shaq ...it was the first words out of his mouth in 2009 ...

I could pull out all sort of articles to illustrate each and every one of these great players backing my point ... but Amb when you are stuck on a point you get dug in like a tick and it would be a waste of my time tbh ...you NEVER admit being wrong ...

[Killakobe81]

They sell stories, that's why. Writers like to fish these athletes for a story, and they wrote them that why. Why did Magic win in 87 and 88 then? He had his revenge. In fact, Magic played even better in 87, he officially got his team, what was his incentive?

MJ is just a freak who like to rub it in. If it wasn't for one humiliation, he would have created another one to push himself. Segos ame with Magic, he would have found the fuel one way or another.

86 Bird got 3 Magic needed 87 and 88 to get to 5 ... not very difficult to see ...agin read "courtship of Rivals" they BOTH speak of that drive some of it feuled by media ...was it in them? Of course. But your peers and the media covering your team calling you a choker saying you cant win, are finished or someone is better than you ALL of that fuels their egos... Mj infamously so ...but a common trait in MOST great players. What did Steve Young say as the clock ran down as watched his Niners finish off the Chargers? ... "the monkey is off my back". Never much cared for Young (hate the Niners) but he was so honest he heard the "we should of kept Joe talk", he knew Joe's shadow loomed and the local and national media was ready ...he delivered. Smart guy great player came from money but he was also fueled by his detractors.