NBA: Quick, who is the only top 10 player to win less than half the Finals MVPs?

[midnightpulp]

No doubt and I miss that kind of coverage. I dont subscribe to SI anymore ... because their writers are all influenced by these advance metrics and cold analyticals when watching the game (for the most part) they don't write with soul anymore most of those hacks are glorified bloggers. Those guys grasped the sense of the moment and understood the crucifixtion and the ressurrection that all the greats faced; from Kareem to Dr.J to MAgic, Bird and MJ to now Kobe and Lebron the losses are part of the story that builds character in the truly great ... we hve clutch and chokes etc. But everyone wants to explain it away with numbers and saying it is a team sport ...which it is but you have an alpha and carries that cross through the good and bad.

Many Spur fans here only want to shower Duncan with praise for the wins and Nail Kobe for the losses it doesnt work that way ...

It is a team sport. Just because the NBA "you grew up in" was covered by sports writers who extracted sensationalized storylines from individual success and failure, it doesn't change the essence of the game: 5 guys playing another 5 guys.

Wanna see what a team victory looks like? Revisit game 7 of the '10 Finals. Or Game 5 of our '05 battle with Detroit.

Without Kobe and Duncan's respective teams stepping up, their legacies could be quite different today. Kobe would be vilified as a "one-and-done" choker who couldn't beat the Celtics and only won in '09 because Garnett was injured. And Duncan (who missed crucial freethrows in that game, along with a game-winning gimmie putback in regulation) might've ended his ring count at two.

Two of the best players of all-time, arguably the two best since Jordan, the bed in two of the biggest games of their careers, but still wound up winning.

Now sit there and tell me with a straight face it ain't a team sport.

[Killakobe81]

It is a team sport. Just because the NBA "you grew up in" was covered by sports writers who extracted sensationalized storylines from individual success and failure, it doesn't change the essence of the game: 5 guys playing another 5 guys.

Wanna see what a team victory looks like? Revisit game 7 of the '10 Finals. Or Game 5 of our '05 battle with Detroit.

Without Kobe and Duncan's respective teams stepping up, their legacies could be quite different today. Kobe would be vilified as a "one-and-done" choker who couldn't beat the Celtics and only won in '09 because Garnett was injured. And Duncan (who missed crucial freethrows in that game, along with a game-winning gimmie putback in regulation) might've ended his ring count at two.

Two of the best players of all-time, arguably the two best since Jordan, the bed in two of the biggest games of their careers, but still wound up winning.

Now sit there and tell me with a straight face it ain't a team sport.

1. As you saw (or should of) I already Said that it was a team game ...why did you not highlight THAT part? Go back it's 5 characters after what you bolded but failed to include ...
2. I dont deny I enjoyed the old school narrative, Writers used to wax poetic but now it's all numbers and low level reporting ... but it still doesnt change the fact that the NBA is a star league always has always will be ... One star can impact a NBA game more than 1 player in almost any other sport except maybe hockey.
3. You did not have to stop with Duncan or Kobe ... Horry saved both multiple times. Paxson and Kerr saved MJ. Miller and Battier saved Lebron. That doesnt change the fact that the stars were still the primary reason those teams won.

[midnightpulp]

1. As you saw (or should of) I already Said that it was a team game ...why did you not highlight THAT part? Go back it's 5 characters after what you bolded but failed to be include ...
2. I dont deny I enjoyed the narrative ... but it still doesnt change the fact that the NBA is a star league always has always will be ... One star can impact a NBA game more than 1 player in almost any other sport except maybe hockey.
3. You did not have to stop with Duncan or Kobe ... Horry saved both multiple times. Paxson and Kerr saved MJ. Miller and Battier saved Lebron. That doesnt change the fact that the stars were still the primary reason those teams won.

But how can they be the "primary" reason when the whole is greater than them? Stars are the most important individual player, but not necessarily the most important piece, since 7 or 8 guys combined (his supporting cast) will always be able to contribute more than him.

I don't care how good you are. You're not more important than the entirety of your supporting cast. If they play badly, the star loses, every time (as we saw in '09 when Lebron had an all-time great series against the Magic but still lost the series). But the star can play badly, sometimes terribly so, and his team can still win.

Don't get me wrong. As I've said before, the star is the most valuable individual component, but isn't more valuable when measured against the sum total of the other parts in the machine.

[Killakobe81]

But how can they be the "primary" reason when the whole is greater than them? Stars are the most important individual player, but not necessarily the most important piece, since 7 or 8 guys combined (his supporting cast) will always be able to contribute more than him.

I don't care how good you are. You're not more important than the entirety of your supporting cast. If they play badly, the star loses, every time (as we saw in '09 when Lebron had an all-time great series against the Magic but still lost the series). But the star can play badly, sometimes terribly so, and his team can still win.

Don't get me wrong. As I've said before, the star is the most valuable individual component, but isn't more valuable when measured against the sum total of the other parts in the machine.

What you say makes sense in theory but stars no, SUPERSTARS win when they have great complementary pieces ...
Sure the team is greater than any one player but that star is what allows those complementary pieces to shine. Some allow their team-mates to thrive by taking away defensive attention and taking the big shots (kobe/MJ) ... some like Magic Bird and Lebron do some of that but also faclitate a great deal. Either way you build around the star and you find the right support players that is why they get the most money, fame and also the most criticism.

[midnightpulp]

What you say makes sense in theory but stars no, SUPERSTARS win when they have great complementary pieces ...
Sure the team is greater than any one player but that star is what allows those complementary pieces to shine. Some allow their team-mates to thrive by taking away defensive attention and taking the big shots (kobe/MJ) ... some like Magic Bird and Lebron do some of that but also faclitate a great deal. Either way you build around the star and you find the right support players that is why they get the most money, fame and also the most criticism.

Makes sense in reality, too.

No way was Magic more important than Kareem/Worthy combined. Or Bird moreso than McHale/Parish. Or Duncan than Manu/Parker/Bowen.

Sure, they made those guys better. But those guys made them better, as well.

[Killakobe81]

Makes sense in reality, too.

No way was Magic more important than Kareem/Worthy combined. Or Bird moreso than McHale/Parish. Or Duncan than Manu/Parker/Bowen.

Sure, they made those guys better. But those guys made them better, as well.

Sure I would take Worthy/Kareem over Magic ... But I take Magic over Scott/Rambis or Bird over Maxwell/Ainge

LOL great analogy 1 HOF over 2!!! What a difficult decision!!!

I would take Lebron over Wade and Bosh tbh though ... and Kobe over Pau/Lamar heck LAkers chose Kobe over a still impactful though no longer dominant Shaquille ...

[ambchang]

That's easy. It's over. You/we know how it turned out.

There was no story if Magic won. Only if he lost. Then the story goes on. That's why Stockton & Heinsohn were tight lipped & flat earred afterward on 9 June 1985. You'd a thought somebody died/just not Magic. They (Media/Celtics) were all in once again '87. Boston had rang in '86. Last chance. So, this time instead of going after Magic, they cut out Worthy and tried to "assassinate" him. Magic, instead of holding his hand and bailing him out, moved away and let Worthy wrestle the gun away from the Celtics and shoot them to death in Los Angeles.

Bull man. The Lakers and Magic was being stuffed down our throats throughout the entire mid to late 80s. The baby sky hook, the repeat promise, his 24 assists game, his clutchness, how Magic took over the lead role from Kareem, and all that. Even that 80's Game 6 was played non stop, over and over.

[ambchang]

Amen Cully.
Again Im not saying those guys don't win ANY les without that crucifixition but look at the NBA since 1980:

1. Lakers beat the Sixers TWICE (80 & 82) in the Finals before Moses brought DR.J to the Promised land and they swept us in 1983

So management did something. What does that have to do with Moses?

2. Celts beat us in 84 which spaked Magic's revenge in '85 which sparked Bird's last great year in 1986

Bull , the Lakers and Celtics were as evenly matched as they come. Them trading championships is no surprise to anyone. Again, you make it sound like Magic winning in 85 has something to do with him losing in 84, and how Bird won in 86 had something to do with him losing in 85. It has nothing to do with it.

3. Lakers and Celts beat on Pistons in the late 80's and Isiah paid them back in 89 & 90 fighting off MJ along the way ...

That's called aging. Kareem was pushing 40, and the Lakers weren't able to find a replacement center of that caliber. Hey, Magic was beat in 89, why didn't he will his team to victory in 90? They couldn't even go past the Blazers? Speaking of which, why didn't the Clyde will the Blazers to win in 90 and 91?

4. MJ made the whole world play for the Pistons disrespect ...

Why didn't Ewing will the Knicks to victory? Why would Jordan have as much hunger after winning 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 championships? What was his drive?

5. Shaq used the sweeps you spoke of earlier to help lead the Lakers back to glory ...

Give me a break, he used Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant. Shaq, during that 3-peat, took company time off for his in grown toe nail.

6. Dirk's 2006 helped him in 2011 no doubt about it sparking ...

That sparking is called Tyson Chandler

7. Lebron to bury his demons

He stopped choking and dominated. It's called growth.

8. Kobe heard the whispers much like they are spoken here ... that he could not win without shaq ...it was the first words out of his mouth in 2009 ...

So he whined about trading away Bynum for Kidd, which turned out to be a great decision by management. He had no hand in getting Pau for peanuts. Also, was it why he shot 6-24 to will his team to victory in a game 7?

I could pull out all sort of articles to illustrate each and every one of these great players backing my point ... but Amb when you are stuck on a point you get dug in like a tick and it would be a waste of my time tbh ...you NEVER admit being wrong ...[/QUOTE]

These articles are made to sell stories. I can't believe after decades of watching the game, you haven't figured it out.

[ambchang]

86 Bird got 3 Magic needed 87 and 88 to get to 5 ... not very difficult to see ...agin read "courtship of Rivals" they BOTH speak of that drive some of it feuled by media ...was it in them? Of course. But your peers and the media covering your team calling you a choker saying you cant win, are finished or someone is better than you ALL of that fuels their egos... Mj infamously so ...but a common trait in MOST great players. What did Steve Young say as the clock ran down as watched his Niners finish off the Chargers? ... "the monkey is off my back". Never much cared for Young (hate the Niners) but he was so honest he heard the "we should of kept Joe talk", he knew Joe's shadow loomed and the local and national media was ready ...he delivered. Smart guy great player came from money but he was also fueled by his detractors.

Of course they look over their shoulder because that is the one team/person that has the best chance of stopping them from winning a championship year after year. Shaq gave the Kings a LOT of attention in the early 00's because they were a major threat, and the Kings, as a group was shafted big time in 2002, didn't get them no where, now did it?

Yes, all great players want to win, and they do anything they possibly can to win, but to say that they win because of that will is foolish. They win because they have better teams than their opposition. That's it. Stockton's got the will, Barkley's got the will, Ewing's got the will, every single one of these great players got the will to drive them to practice day after day, run suicide drills, got chewed out by the coach, got embarrassed on national media, etc ... but some of them just don't have the good fortune of being on a better team, or they don't have the ability to fill in for the team's shortfall.

[ambchang]

mids, I think that's why KK81 worships Kobe, and we don't, because we see a team, and he sees individuals.

[Thread]

Bull man. The Lakers and Magic was being stuffed down our throats throughout the entire mid to late 80s. The baby sky hook, the repeat promise, his 24 assists game, his clutchness, how Magic took over the lead role from Kareem, and all that. Even that 80's Game 6 was played non stop, over and over.

You're angry this morning.

[Killakobe81]

mids, I think that's why KK81 worships Kobe, and we don't, because we see a team, and he sees individuals.

I dont worship Kobe I respect the out him though.

Malone for example, had a great coach, solid team-mates a HOF PG and a HOF coach. Yet he did not win a le not even when MJ left. Sure I never thought his team was the best in the NBA ...but he had a huge part in why they made it as far as they did and a huge part in why they did not win a chip. I dont care what his winshares are ... I dont care that Hornacek or some other support player failed ...at the end of the day (as I have seen posted on here MANY times) he failed. He has been called a choker and all kinds of various things to prop Timmy by comparison ...none of that "well he wasnt expected to beat the Bulls or the Rockets or the Spurs" excuses you offer Pau or dont allow Kobe.

You act condescending and talk team because it suits your argument now ...but I see through the bull- . You push your anti-kobe agenda constantly in threads that have NOTHING to do with him.

YOu are the bizarro Kool-Aid Man tbh ... a better quality poster but at least he is funny sometimes. You just seemed obsessed tbh ... when Kobe is not the subject few here are better posters. But you need to get your head out of Kobe's ass ...he is done for the year ... the playoffs are here enjoy the game.

[ambchang]

I dont worship Kobe I respect the out him though.

Malone for example, had a great coach, solid team-mates a HOF PG and a HOF coach. Yet he did not win a le not even when MJ left. Sure I never thought his team was the best in the NBA ...but he had a huge part in why they made it as far as they did and a huge part in why they did not win a chip. I dont care what his winshares are ... I dont care that Hornacek or some other support player failed ...at the end of the day (as I have seen posted on here MANY times) he failed. He has been called a choker and all kinds of various things to prop Timmy by comparison ...none of that "well he wasnt expected to beat the Bulls or the Rockets or the Spurs" excuses you offer Pau or dont allow Kobe.

You act condescending and talk team because it suits your argument now ...but I see through the bull- . You push your anti-kobe agenda constantly in threads that have NOTHING to do with him.

YOu are the bizarro Kool-Aid Man tbh ... a better quality poster but at least he is funny sometimes. You just seemed obsessed tbh ... when Kobe is not the subject few here are better posters. But you need to get your head out of Kobe's ass ...he is done for the year ... the playoffs are here enjoy the game.

Malone didn't win at all not because he didn't want it enough, it's because he's not GOOD enough, he choked.

And lol about your comments on my agenda. I enjoy team ball, I love watching team ball, and that's why I am a Spurs fan, and have mad respect for the early to mid 00 Pistons. Despite the strong rivalry, I never dislike Nash or Nowitzki, because they played team ball, and I appreciate them as players for it. Funny thing is, I actually like Pau, who is a Laker, I disliked Shaq because the guy was a giant goofball and deserves at least half the blame for a dominant team breaking up, but he never shot his team out of championships.

Now Kobe, mad skills, but after almost two decades, he STILL couldn't figure out how to play team ball, and cost his heavily stacked teams at least two championships, and much more success in other seasons, but popular media and ignorant fans just ignored them all. And it's not like nothing was said about it, his coach wrote a book about it, Shaq talked about it, Pau alluded to it, Dwight openly talked about it in his first year with the team, and guess what? They were all dismissed, and the players were even ridiculed for it. I just couldn't understand this phenomenon, I don't.

Like SSSC said "I'm here to spit flames until this change".

[Killakobe81]

Malone didn't win at all not because he didn't want it enough, it's because he's not GOOD enough, he choked.

And lol about your comments on my agenda. I enjoy team ball, I love watching team ball, and that's why I am a Spurs fan, and have mad respect for the early to mid 00 Pistons. Despite the strong rivalry, I never dislike Nash or Nowitzki, because they played team ball, and I appreciate them as players for it. Funny thing is, I actually like Pau, who is a Laker, I disliked Shaq because the guy was a giant goofball and deserves at least half the blame for a dominant team breaking up, but he never shot his team out of championships.

Now Kobe, mad skills, but after almost two decades, he STILL couldn't figure out how to play team ball, and cost his heavily stacked teams at least two championships, and much more success in other seasons, but popular media and ignorant fans just ignored them all. And it's not like nothing was said about it, his coach wrote a book about it, Shaq talked about it, Pau alluded to it, Dwight openly talked about it in his first year with the team, and guess what? They were all dismissed, and the players were even ridiculed for it. I just couldn't understand this phenomenon, I don't.

Like SSSC said "I'm here to spit flames until this change".

Reggie Miller gets it. On The Playoff version of Open Court he says (paraphrasing) "Not winning a le is my greatest failure. I Was so close multiple conference finals, 1 NBA Finals ...sure those was great teams. But as the leader of that team the guy at the head of the table there is responisbilty that goes with the big contract, the endorsements to those other 11 guys looking back at you in the locker room counting on you. You get the accolades for hitting the big shots but with that comes responsibilty ...sure you face great teams but that is what you are paid to do when you are at the head of the table ...that is my greatest failure."

Sure it's a team game never said it wasnt. But great players lead teams ... and Im proud my boy Reggie a BRUIN, a Cali boy gets it. Sure he had the MJ excuse but he doesnt take it. No mention of his team not being good enough ... or saying he lost to MJ or Shaq. Reggie knows that in the end the star is responsible win or lose.

Chuck also says he suffered much like Marino or Elgin ...
Cwebb no surprise ... alluded to team-mates that did not take the game seriously but no mention of some of the game where he "shrank" in the clutch.

Outside of Chuck, Reggie is my favorite player that never rang ...

Note: Not saying one player wins or loses a game singularly, I get it is a team sport, was just speaking on the "responsibility" that a star has to a team ...Reggie spoke well on teh subject. But again he like me is old school ...

[Killakobe81]

Also shaq tells Brent Barry (in for Kenny smith) " I dont remember any of your playoff moments, no offense." LOL

[SupremeGuy]

Kobe: 5

the tired old bag Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

Duncan: 2 healthy Achilles tendons

the tired old bag Kirby: 1

[ambchang]

Reggie Miller gets it. On The Playoff version of Open Court he says (paraphrasing) "Not winning a le is my greatest failure. I Was so close multiple conference finals, 1 NBA Finals ...sure those was great teams. But as the leader of that team the guy at the head of the table there is responisbilty that goes with the big contract, the endorsements to those other 11 guys looking back at you in the locker room counting on you. You get the accolades for hitting the big shots but with that comes responsibilty ...sure you face great teams but that is what you are paid to do when you are at the head of the table ...that is my greatest failure."

Sure it's a team game never said it wasnt. But great players lead teams ... and Im proud my boy Reggie a BRUIN, a Cali boy gets it. Sure he had the MJ excuse but he doesnt take it. No mention of his team not being good enough ... or saying he lost to MJ or Shaq. Reggie knows that in the end the star is responsible win or lose.

Chuck also says he suffered much like Marino or Elgin ...
Cwebb no surprise ... alluded to team-mates that did not take the game seriously but no mention of some of the game where he "shrank" in the clutch.

Outside of Chuck, Reggie is my favorite player that never rang ...

Note: Not saying one player wins or loses a game singularly, I get it is a team sport, was just speaking on the "responsibility" that a star has to a team ...Reggie spoke well on teh subject. But again he like me is old school ...

Also shaq tells Brent Barry (in for Kenny smith) " I dont remember any of your playoff moments, no offense." LOL

So, a player not winning the championship IS a huge let down. Is it all on them? No, it's not. Management and team has a lot to do with it. A right team being built, a right coach, and sometimes, pure luck as to do with winning a championship or not. But does all the credit goes to the "superstar" player of the team, no! Does all of blame of NOT winning a championship goes to the star player? No! That's about as glib a summary as it comes. Just because Shaq doesn't remember Barry or Smith's contributions to championship teams doesn't mean that they didn't contribute at all. Barry contributed, and Smith, in particular, was vital to the Rockets championships. By agreeing with Shaq, you are basically saying that what is perceived is reality, and what really happened isn't.

Could Smith and Barry have been replaced by another player and the team would have still won the championship? Of course. In fact, they could be replaced MUCH easier than the star players of the team, and that is an understatement, but they still contributed, and without them and their vital contributions, those teams might not, and likely wouldn't have won. Management pulled those players in because they see them being vital cogs to a championship team, and management was right.

[Thread]

Duncan: 2 healthy Achilles tendons

the tired old bag Kirby: 1

Fine. You take that one. I'm stickin' with this one:::

Kobe: 5

the tired old bag Duncan: 4

[Killakobe81]

So, a player not winning the championship IS a huge let down. Is it all on them? No, it's not. Management and team has a lot to do with it. A right team being built, a right coach, and sometimes, pure luck as to do with winning a championship or not. But does all the credit goes to the "superstar" player of the team, no! Does all of blame of NOT winning a championship goes to the star player? No! That's about as glib a summary as it comes. Just because Shaq doesn't remember Barry or Smith's contributions to championship teams doesn't mean that they didn't contribute at all. Barry contributed, and Smith, in particular, was vital to the Rockets championships. By agreeing with Shaq, you are basically saying that what is perceived is reality, and what really happened isn't.

Could Smith and Barry have been replaced by another player and the team would have still won the championship? Of course. In fact, they could be replaced MUCH easier than the star players of the team, and that is an understatement, but they still contributed, and without them and their vital contributions, those teams might not, and likely wouldn't have won. Management pulled those players in because they see them being vital cogs to a championship team, and management was right.

Oh there you go, Amb taking blind leaps. I never said I agreed with Shaq ONLY Reggie. Shaq, if you watch the show talked about the "others" Fox, Horry Shaw etc. and how they helped him win. No ONE is saying those guys dont matter or don't count. In fact, they spent a great deal of time lauding Steve Kerr for his contributions.

I just thought it was funny he remembered a "signature playoff moment" from everyone else on the panel ...
But Chuck said it best NO ONE was going to say Oh well Steve, or Brent or even Smitty ... "they never won a chapionship" ...and again that is what you fail to grasp. Those are great players , If PAu failed to win a le he would never be ripped like they were ... because he is not a star like Lebron or even on Dirks' level. Of course management and team-mates are important. Health too ...heck Shaq even pointed out the luck involved with Horry's and Dfish hitting miracle shots.

But at the end of the day Chuck, Cwebb, Shaq and Reggie all talked about as the star the pressure and the responsibilty they had.

The whole point of or back and forth is not for me to discredit Pau who I like or laud Kobe who I like even more. But just to point out that the star player does not get the privilige, money, fame etc for the wins without aceepting a large share of the blame when they fail even if they played well or at least better than their less talented team-mates.

I just think you smack of hypocrisy because you make snide remarks about Malone or Kobe or players you dont like but turn around and make excuses for those that you do ... like Pau.

IF Kobe or Malone were 0-12 in playoffs before playing second fiddle for 2 straight les you would crucify them or at the very least give praise to that star... Kobe was the 1 option for 2 championship teams and and you still kill him now. Im not saying like Kobe ... Im not even saying don't bash him ...because or back and forth is fun sometimes ...

I just still dont get why you are going out of your way to:

1. Question KAreem who btw, I just saw (NBA TV) average over 20 points in 1987 through first 3 games, in his Mid 30's on Boston's vaunted front-line ... in the Finals. Who cares if he did not get Finals MVP over a deserving Magic?
2. Why does Pau get a break that you would not offer any other "great" player? 0-12 is still 0-12 boiled down. Baked. Fried or grilled.


And this is the last time I plan to mention Kobe until the Finals are over. because tbh, he does not matter. he can't play and until a ch ampion is decided he has no bearing on the sport for 6 months plus ...

[ambchang]

Oh there you go, Amb taking blind leaps. I never said I agreed with Shaq ONLY Reggie. Shaq, if you watch the show talked about the "others" Fox, Horry Shaw etc. and how they helped him win. No ONE is saying those guys dont matter or don't count. In fact, they spent a great deal of time lauding Steve Kerr for his contributions.

I just thought it was funny he remembered a "signature playoff moment" from everyone else on the panel ...
But Chuck said it best NO ONE was going to say Oh well Steve, or Brent or even Smitty ... "they never won a chapionship" ...and again that is what you fail to grasp. Those are great players , If PAu failed to win a le he would never be ripped like they were ... because he is not a star like Lebron or even on Dirks' level. Of course management and team-mates are important. Health too ...heck Shaq even pointed out the luck involved with Horry's and Dfish hitting miracle shots.

But at the end of the day Chuck, Cwebb, Shaq and Reggie all talked about as the star the pressure and the responsibilty they had.

The whole point of or back and forth is not for me to discredit Pau who I like or laud Kobe who I like even more. But just to point out that the star player does not get the privilige, money, fame etc for the wins without aceepting a large share of the blame when they fail even if they played well or at least better than their less talented team-mates.

I just think you smack of hypocrisy because you make snide remarks about Malone or Kobe or players you dont like but turn around and make excuses for those that you do ... like Pau.

IF Kobe or Malone were 0-12 in playoffs before playing second fiddle for 2 straight les you would crucify them or at the very least give praise to that star... Kobe was the 1 option for 2 championship teams and and you still kill him now. Im not saying like Kobe ... Im not even saying don't bash him ...because or back and forth is fun sometimes ...

I just still dont get why you are going out of your way to:

1. Question KAreem who btw, I just saw (NBA TV) average over 20 points in 1987 through first 3 games, in his Mid 30's on Boston's vaunted front-line ... in the Finals. Who cares if he did not get Finals MVP over a deserving Magic?
2. Why does Pau get a break that you would not offer any other "great" player? 0-12 is still 0-12 boiled down. Baked. Fried or grilled.


And this is the last time I plan to mention Kobe until the Finals are over. because tbh, he does not matter. he can't play and until a ch ampion is decided he has no bearing on the sport for 6 months plus ...

First, I am not sure why you are sounding more and more like Thread.

Second, I agree with most of this, I agree a star player SHOULD get most of the blame. Which is why I don't get why Pau was blamed for 2007, 2008, and 2011, while Kobe got off scotch free.

Third, Malone and Kobe didn't go 0-12 in the playoffs, so it's a moot point. And I believe you got the 0-12 reversed, I am saying it doesn't matter. Kobe going 0-2 in first round of the playoffs isn't a huge deal for me, because we know that their team wasn't supposed to win, it's him missing the playoffs, in his prime, with a supporting group that is probably good enough to go to the playoffs that really got me. Then there is this season, we understand that he is past his absolute prime, but he is supposed to still be a "dominant" player, and yet, we have seen, at least at the end of the year, that the Lakers actually do play better without Kobe, and there are reasons to back it up:

1) Kobe is a ball-stopper. It worked when he didn't have a lot of scoring options around him, but he does have a lot of scoring options around him now
2) Kobe played no defense, putting a huge defensive load onto the lakers frontline to stop the gaps.

At the end of the day, I think Pau gets way too little credit for the Lakers success, and way too much blame for the Lakers failure, while getting none of the accolades. Hey, from a statistical standpoint he was more valuable to the lakers during the 2 championship runs, why didn't he get any credit? Why was it that Kobe led them to 2 championships when it was Pau who had more contribution?

[Thread]

FAt the end of the day, I think Pau gets way too little credit for the Lakers success

That's because Pau couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[Splits]

Kobe: 5

the tired old bag Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

So you do do 12.

[Thread]

So you do do 12.

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

[Splits]

I don't do 12. I leave that to you children.

Well, you certainly did in this thread. Amb posted a top 10 sans Kobe and you were the 2nd response, rushing to his defense.

When did you stop doing 12?

[Thread]

Well, you certainly did in this thread. Amb posted a top 10 sans Kobe and you were the 2nd response, rushing to his defense.

When did you stop doing 12?

I don't 12. I leave that to you children.