Rockets: Breaking down Rockets vs OKC matchups

[thunderup]

What's superficial about it?

Stats and stats alone drive you to make conclusions, such as the ones you did here. I find it hard you actually believe the bull you're posting about Serge after he had a major impact in last year's WCF.

at saying a player like Serge is replaceable

I don't know you're getting past the Rockets or Clippers, tbh... also, we'll see if the Spurs get that far.

Any series between now and the WCF will go at most 5 games, maybe 6 if the Clippers play out of their minds.

The Spurs will get past the Lakers and Nuggets.

[ElNono]

Not a terrible argument, just a terrible situation; we shouldn't of had to be in that situation to begin with. And as much as KD is an athletic defender, he would get absolutely bullied by any true 4/5 guy in the post.

But that happens with Ibaka already. What Ibaka does great for your team is: A) hit his shot to space the floor for drivers like KD or Westbrook, like any good stretch 4 should and B) block from the weak side.

You can replace A. B is harder. But you just mentioned ZBo. If you get ZBo, you'll have a post presence, and you won't be playing the exactly the same as right now. He'll open up the offense to a back to the basket game too, and free up shooters like Martin or even KD. What makes everything work is KD. He's the young guy, and the star. He can play a bunch of different ways.

I think we made the best decision in a horrible situation for the future of our franchise and I think we'll do marginally better than last year. I don't think clear evidence of wether we screwed up or not on our decision to choose Ibaka over Harden will be evident until after a couple of years. The only way we could improve on this team is finding a true pg like Chris Paul and finding a mobile big to replace Perk (which isn't that big of a priority)

I think Presti screwed up, tbh. Time will tell.

[ElNono]

Stats and stats alone drive you to make conclusions, such as the ones you did here. I find it hard you actually believe the bull you're posting about Serge after he had a major impact in last year's WCF.

at saying a player like Serge is replaceable

At the end of the day, production is what matters. You guys hate Perk strictly because his numbers suck. But he's an important cog in the machine, simply because none of your other guys can defend bigs in the post.

Serge is the product of a successful team. But he's a very average player. I mean, so many average players made a living off Duncan's best years (Malik Rose, Rasho Nesterovic, Nazr Mohamed). It's the same with Durant.

Any series between now and the WCF will go at most 5 games, maybe 6 if the Clippers play out of their minds.

I want to see the Clippers on the road. Then I'll tell you.

The Spurs will get past the Lakers and Nuggets.

You would think they should, but we're banged up and the league just doesn't like us. I think we have a great shot, but we'll see.

[Monster1776]

I think Presti screwed up, tbh. Time will tell.

A lot people share your sentiment which is why I'm nervous and also not terribly enthusiastic about this year. Only reason I'm optimistic is because of KD and the slight chance Westbrook will mature in these playoffs.

Sam Presti has done an amazing job thus far, I'm hoping the luck continues.

[TIMMYtoZO]

A lot people share your sentiment which is why I'm nervous and also not terribly enthusiastic about this year. Only reason I'm optimistic is because of KD and the slight chance Westbrook will mature in these playoffs.

Sam Presti has done an amazing job thus far, I'm hoping the luck continues.

Give me Udonis Haslem over Ibaka. Haslem can actually play man defense, rebound, and doesn't need to jump around like a stupid monkey to block a shot. When a smart team like Miami plays OKC, Ibaka gets exposed for the piece of he is.

[OKC]

According to OKC, he can shoot 11-11 whenever he wants.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Come on.

[OKC]

Give me Udonis Haslem over Ibaka. Haslem can actually play man defense, rebound, and doesn't need to jump around like a stupid monkey to block a shot. When a smart team like Miami plays OKC, Ibaka gets exposed for the piece of he is.

Yeah, Haslem blocks shots without jumping at the rate of 0.2 a game. Maybe he should try jumping?
Ibaka can't rebound? His offensive rebounding rate per 48 minutes is 30% higher than Haslem's.
Horrible take.

[OKC]

But that happens with Ibaka already. What Ibaka does great for your team is: A) hit his shot to space the floor for drivers like KD or Westbrook, like any good stretch 4 should and B) block from the weak side.

Yeah,that's what he does. You act as if a 4 hitting the perimeter shot at the rate Ibaka does is just kind of an ordinary thing. It's not. Does it make him some all world offensive player? Of course not, but let's not underestimate the uniqueness of a PF hitting the outside shot consistently at anywhere from 47 to near 60%. He does need to develop a back to the basket game though, I agree. Right now they're starting to feed him the ball in the post more. He's catching the ball and then pivoting to face the basket in a triple threat position and either taking the jumper or driving. Would like to see him develop the little low post hook shot. That would really add some versatility.

[Monster1776]

Yeah, Haslem blocks shots without jumping at the rate of 0.2 a game. Maybe he should try jumping?
Ibaka can't rebound? His offensive rebounding rate per 48 minutes is 30% higher than Haslem's.
Horrible take.

I thought we all agreed that we wouldn't take Heat fans seriously?

And it would be nice for Ibaka to have a hook shot in his repertoire but it's not necessary; some bigs excell at a face up game because their body is tuned to it; it's exactly how I used to play.

[OKC]

I don't know. El Nono makes some sense, but I'll strongly disagree with his assessment that Ibaka is merely an average player. I think his statement that Ibaka is a "horrible" man defender is also a pretty big exaggeration. I think a lot of people underestimate the impact of Ibaka's help defense. He's probably the only player in the NBA that can significantly change a game with his blocking ability. If there's such thing is a blocked shot "zone", Ibaka is the guy Ive seen get in one. There's games where he almost completely shuts down the opposition from even wanting to attempt a shot in the lane. The deterrence factor, at times, is huge. The way in which he alters shots, even if not actually blocking the shot, is also underestimated or misunderstood by some.

[TIMMYtoZO]

Yeah, Haslem blocks shots without jumping at the rate of 0.2 a game. Maybe he should try jumping? Ibaka can't rebound? His offensive rebounding rate per 48 minutes is 30% higher than Haslem's.Horrible take.

Of course it's higher, Ibaka plays more minutes. Haslem may not have the African jungle jumping ability Ibaka has, but he is a stronger and tougher defensive player. Haslem also doesn't go MIA like Ibaka does when players are ting on him (Dirk, Bosh, Battier to name a few). All Ibaka brings is a skillset that has been contained by the last 2 teams who eliminated OKC. Haslem is a mentally tough player while Ibaka is a mentally weak one. When things aren't going OKC's way, Ibaka doesn't do . His jumpers don't fall, and/or he is too afraid to take them. Nick Collison is more reliable because of this.

[ElNono]

Yeah,that's what he does. You act as if a 4 hitting the perimeter shot at the rate Ibaka does is just kind of an ordinary thing. It's not. Does it make him some all world offensive player? Of course not, but let's not underestimate the uniqueness of a PF hitting the outside shot consistently at anywhere from 47 to near 60%. He does need to develop a back to the basket game though, I agree. Right now they're starting to feed him the ball in the post more. He's catching the ball and then pivoting to face the basket in a triple threat position and either taking the jumper or driving. Would like to see him develop the little low post hook shot. That would really add some versatility.

I think the disconnect here is that he doesn't really play as a PF. On offense, he's strictly a perimeter guy. He plays basically as a tall guard. Among perimeter players, shooting 47%/35% is pedestrian at best. There's nothing 'special' about a PF that plays like a guard and makes average percentages compared to any other guard. Defensively, he's the weakest of your 'bigs', period. He can't guard any physical big and his shot blocking is strictly limited to weak-side help.

I don't know. El Nono makes some sense, but I'll strongly disagree with his assessment that Ibaka is merely an average player. I think his statement that Ibaka is a "horrible" man defender is also a pretty big exaggeration. I think a lot of people underestimate the impact of Ibaka's help defense. He's probably the only player in the NBA that can significantly change a game with his blocking ability. If there's such thing is a blocked shot "zone", Ibaka is the guy Ive seen get in one. There's games where he almost completely shuts down the opposition from even wanting to attempt a shot in the lane. The deterrence factor, at times, is huge. The way in which he alters shots, even if not actually blocking the shot, is also underestimated or misunderstood by some.

You're conflating two completely different things here: man defense is the ability to defend your own guy. Help defense is the ability to go help when one of your teammates defense brakes down. His man defense is poor by any standards. He doesn't have the build to play the physical bigs in the league. His shot-blocking in face up situations is also mediocre. Excellent defenders like Chandler, Duncan, fat Gasol, they all can face up and block shots, anchor the defense, and tackle the physical bigs. His help defense and weak side shot blocking is great, but its obviously reliant on guys like Perkins and Sefolosha softening the attacking player. He certainly has great timing and athleticism, and he takes pride on doing that kind of work, so he should be commended for that.

[Indazone]

Rocketsfans just need to be happy we even made the playoffs. We are up against the number one seed. We are going to get our asses handed to us. Preseason we were picked to finish last with the worst record in the NBA. Breathe and know there is enough cap room to sign another star. It's a free agency smorgasbord. Chris Bosh will probably not stay in Miami.

[OKC]

Of course it's higher, Ibaka plays more minutes. Haslem may not have the African jungle jumping ability Ibaka has, but he is a stronger and tougher defensive player. Haslem also doesn't go MIA like Ibaka does when players are ting on him (Dirk, Bosh, Battier to name a few). All Ibaka brings is a skillset that has been contained by the last 2 teams who eliminated OKC. Haslem is a mentally tough player while Ibaka is a mentally weak one. When things aren't going OKC's way, Ibaka doesn't do . His jumpers don't fall, and/or he is too afraid to take them. Nick Collison is more reliable because of this.

These statements are based off of last years NBA Finals - and based on that, yes you are correct. Ibaka, as well as Harden, basically disappeared. All that aside, I don't know many intelligent basketball fans that would choose to have Udonis Haslem on their roster over Serge Ibaka.

And ok, if you want to equate Haslem's shot blocking stats to Ibaka's on a per 48 minute basis - as I did with offensive rebounding (reminder - Ibaka rebounds at a 30% higher clip PER 48 minutes than Haslem does), here you go:
Haslem - 0.5 blocks per 48 minutes
Ibaka - 4.64 blocks per 48 minutes - in other words, over 9 TIMES the shot blocking rate of Haslem.

Please quit comparing Haslem's shot blocking to Ibaka's.

[OKC]

I think the disconnect here is that he doesn't really play as a PF. On offense, he's strictly a perimeter guy. He plays basically as a tall guard. Among perimeter players, shooting 47%/35% is pedestrian at best. There's nothing 'special' about a PF that plays like a guard and makes average percentages compared to any other guard. Defensively, he's the weakest of your 'bigs', period. He can't guard any physical big and his shot blocking is strictly limited to weak-side help.



You're conflating two completely different things here: man defense is the ability to defend your own guy. Help defense is the ability to go help when one of your teammates defense brakes down. His man defense is poor by any standards. He doesn't have the build to play the physical bigs in the league. His shot-blocking in face up situations is also mediocre. Excellent defenders like Chandler, Duncan, fat Gasol, they all can face up and block shots, anchor the defense, and tackle the physical bigs. His help defense and weak side shot blocking is great, but its obviously reliant on guys like Perkins and Sefolosha softening the attacking player. He certainly has great timing and athleticism, and he takes pride on doing that kind of work, so he should be commended for that.

Yeah, he excels at help defense, weak side, etc, that's for certain. That's his defensive strength, obviously. I just don't think he's a BAD man defender. If it's a Duncan..yeah he can be kinda bad, but that's Perkins' assignment really. Ibaka is at least a mediocre defender against guys who aren't notably bigger than him. I think a lot of what you see with Ibaka is against the Spurs. Maybe you watch every single one of OKC's games, I don't know? I do. I can see where against SA you would see him get schooled by Duncan and think he's a bad man defender, but against more reasonable matchups - Ibaka is a decent man defender. I agree that his offensive game is primarily perimeter, outside of putbacks on the offensive glass, which he is also very good at. But you state that shooting 47% from the 16-23 foot range in question is "pedestrian", by guards' standards. It's really not. I'm going down the list looking at guard type players who at least have a reasonable amount of attempts per game 2.5-3.0 or so- Chris Paul shoots 51%. Steve Nash 50%. Dirk at 49%. Rondo 48%. Jack 48%. Those are the only guards in the entire league that shoot at a higher % than Ibaka. How in the world do you call Ibaka's shooting "pedestrian"?

[ElNono]

Yeah, he excels at help defense, weak side, etc, that's for certain. That's his defensive strength, obviously. I just don't think he's a BAD man defender. If it's a Duncan..yeah he can be kinda bad, but that's Perkins' assignment really. Ibaka is at least a mediocre defender against guys who aren't notably bigger than him. I think a lot of what you see with Ibaka is against the Spurs. Maybe you watch every single one of OKC's games, I don't know? I do. I can see where against SA you would see him get schooled by Duncan and think he's a bad man defender, but against more reasonable matchups - Ibaka is a decent man defender. I agree that his offensive game is primarily perimeter, outside of putbacks on the offensive glass, which he is also very good at. But you state that shooting 47% from the 16-23 foot range in question is "pedestrian", by guards' standards. It's really not. I'm going down the list looking at guard type players who at least have a reasonable amount of attempts per game 2.5-3.0 or so- Chris Paul shoots 51%. Steve Nash 50%. Dirk at 49%. Rondo 48%. Jack 48%. Those are the only guards in the entire league that shoot at a higher % than Ibaka. How in the world do you call Ibaka's shooting "pedestrian"?

He's a 37.9% shooter from 20-24... He's also 35% from downtown. Basically, outside of 20ft his percentages drop dramatically, which for a guard it's simply too limited range.

[djohn2oo8]

Rocketsfans just need to be happy we even made the playoffs. We are up against the number one seed. We are going to get our asses handed to us. Preseason we were picked to finish last with the worst record in the NBA. Breathe and know there is enough cap room to sign another star. It's a free agency smorgasbord. Chris Bosh will probably not stay in Miami.

What's even more puzzling is how did they make it with McFail as the head coach? I actually think the team played better under Sampson.

[djohn2oo8]

While he does have a point, I do think it's quite hypocritical of Ibaka to call the Rockets a selfish team with that head Westbrook and Kevin "Don't count that as a shot attempt" Durant.

[Monster1776]

To be fair who can really even guard Duncan.

[OKC]

While he does have a point, I do think it's quite hypocritical of Ibaka to call the Rockets a selfish team with that head Westbrook and Kevin "Don't count that as a shot attempt" Durant.

“Make them be kind of selfish,” Serge Ibaka said of OKC’s defensive tactic. “When we switch against a team like them it makes them go one-on-one. That’s good for us. So for them they can take some tough shots, some contested shots. That’s what we want. That’s what we’re looking for.”

Not really a hypocritical statement. He's not suggesting Houston is selfish by nature. He's just talking X's and O's.

[OKC]

He's a 37.9% shooter from 20-24... He's also 35% from downtown. Basically, outside of 20ft his percentages drop dramatically, which for a guard it's simply too limited range.

20-24 is not his game. Those attempts account for a very small % of his game. He's shot like...50 3 pointers all season? The bulk is inside 20 feet