Spurs: Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...

[midnightpulp]

Take off the playoff filter, pussy.

Once again, Duncan can only manage third.

Hes either the third best center or third best power forward any way you spin it.

Nope. That's when it counts. That's the "real season." The best players in NBA history define themselves in the playoffs. Nobody gave a about Lebron's statistical dominance when he was choking against the Mavs. Or Dirk's MVP after he failed against Golden State. Likewise, Kobe's '06 scoring outburst became an afterthought when he underperformed against your Suns.

Spurs fans learned this first hand with David Robinson. In his prime, the most statistical dominant player in the league. If he didn't oblige his naval commitments, if he never got injured, and if Tim Duncan never existed, Robinson would have had a 10-12 year career as a first option player and would've likely led all centers in regular season "big games," and it wouldn't have meant if he couldn't meet that same standard in the real season, which players like him and Malone never did.

Barkley is indeed an offensive powerhouse and a much a better player than Malone, but the reason the majority of the NBA world considers Duncan the superior player is because he's in another universe defensively (the same exact argument you used to place Ibaka on the All NBA 2nd team). Call Duncan a center, fine. Give Barkley the label of greatest PF, fine. Ultimately, though, Tim Duncan is a better player than Charles Barkley.

[CubanMustGo]

It's been a while, but it looks like OP's off his meds again.

[midnightpulp]

Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..

Harlem Heat

[ambchang]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

[da_suns_fan]

Nope. That's when it counts. That's the "real season." The best players in NBA history define themselves in the playoffs. Nobody gave a about Lebron's statistical dominance when he was choking against the Mavs. Or Dirk's MVP after he failed against Golden State. Likewise, Kobe's '06 scoring outburst became an afterthought when he underperformed against your Suns.

Spurs fans learned this first hand with David Robinson. In his prime, the most statistical dominant player in the league. If he didn't oblige his naval commitments, if he never got injured, and if Tim Duncan never existed, Robinson would have had a 10-12 year career as a first option player and would've likely led all centers in regular season "big games," and it wouldn't have meant if he couldn't meet that same standard in the real season, which players like him and Malone never did.

Barkley is indeed an offensive powerhouse and a much a better player than Malone, but the reason the majority of the NBA world considers Duncan the superior player is because he's in another universe defensively (the same exact argument you used to place Ibaka on the All NBA 2nd team). Call Duncan a center, fine. Give Barkley the label of greatest PF, fine. Ultimately, though, Tim Duncan is a better player than Charles Barkley.

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!!

Ive proven my point, I think. The fact remains Duncan hasnt had many great games relative to the others.

[da_suns_fan]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

[da_suns_fan]

but dsf, you STILL haven't answered your original premise of Jordan > Duncan in big man stats (which were a horrible criteria in the first place) when Duncan > Jordan in 3 of the 4 categories. Could you please answer the question?

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

[midnightpulp]

As I already mentioned, filtering for playoffs is stupid considering the number of playoff games played is so dramatically different for each player.

Duncan has played in 70 more playoff games than the likes of Barkley, KG (yet Barkley still has more 30/20 playoff games which just really shows how infrequent Duncan was at that feat).

Barkley's Sixers and Suns teams all averaged around 110 points per game and play at much higher pace.

Duncan's Spurs teams averaged around 90.

Christ, are you this re ed? Do you not understand how pace can boost/diminish numbers? I can also explain to you, qualitatively, why Barkley had so many 20 rebound games compared to Duncan (and why Duncan, an all-time great rebounder from a skill set perspective, never had one of those 14/15 rebound seasons and has comparatively less 20 rebound games than other bigs) but since you're about a trillion brain cells short of an average IQ, I won't bother.

But yeah, Barkley was a better scorer than Duncan. So what? David Lee is a better scorer than Serge Ibaka (the player you have on the All NBA 2nd team because of his defense).

[ambchang]

Jordan had more 40/10 games than Duncan. I wasnt claiming that Jordan was a better "big man" than duncan, i was just pointing out that Duncan didnt have many 40/10 games (i think he was 17th) because hes really not a great scorer.

Except that wasn't what you said. You said

Im saying Jordan had more amazing games using "forward/center" statistics than Duncan did (and Jordans not even a F/C).

Try to keep up.

You explicitly said those were forward/center stats (big man stats), and Jordan had more of them. Except that 40 points is not a big man stat, and you ignored the other 3 criterion you set up in your very first post.

Also awaiting your response on the number of career double doubles by Duncan.

[midnightpulp]

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!!

Ive proven my point, I think. The fact remains Duncan hasnt had many great games relative to the others.

You haven't proven anything. All you've proven is that some players meet your arbitrary standards in the regular seasn.

The playoffs are when the best players/teams face up against each other. When the opposition can scheme for a week to try and stop you. When the pressure is on. Performing well in the playoffs is magnitudes more impressive than tallying a bunch of "big games" in the regular season against lottery teams and coasting contenders.

[da_suns_fan]

Barkley's Sixers and Suns teams all averaged around 110 points per game and play at much higher pace.

Duncan's Spurs team averaged around 90.

Christ, are you this re ed? Do you not understand how pace can boost/diminish numbers? I can also explain to you, qualitatively, why Barkley had so many 20 rebound games compared to Duncan (and why Duncan, an all-time great rebounder from a skill set perspective, never had one of those 14/15 rebound seasons and has comparatively less 20 rebound games than other bigs) but since you're about a trillion brain cells short of an average IQ, I won't bother.

But yeah, Barkley was a better scorer than Duncan. So what? David Lee is a better scorer than Serge Ibaka (the player you have on the All NBA 2nd team because of his defense).

"Pace matters" is a very valid argument. But the fact remains "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...". YOU decide what a "great game" is. Duncan will show up third, at best.

Even in your "playoffs matter most queries", the result set shows such a few number of games. Even if Duncan is number one in your particular "great playoff game" query, he only did it a handful times. Hence, "Duncan hasnt had that MANY "great" games relative to other greats".

Its fun to watch you guys get so angry when faced with the truth. Duncan's really not that impressive. You want to use the "pace" excuse, go ahead. Shaq didnt need it and he played in the same era.

Checkmate, buddy. Im out.

[midnightpulp]

"Pace matters" is a very valid argument. But the fact remains "Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...". YOU decide what a "great game" is. Duncan will show up third, at best.

Even in your "playoffs matter most queries", the result set shows such a few number of games. Even if Duncan is number one in your particular "great playoff game" query, he only did it a handful times. Hence, "Duncan hasnt had that MANY "great" games relative to other greats".

Its fun to watch you guys get so angry when faced with the truth. Duncan's really not that impressive. You want to use the "pace" excuse, go ahead. Shaq didnt need it and he played in the same era.

Checkmate, buddy. Im out.

But Shaq didn't play in the same system or on the same team. David Lee and Marc Gasol also play in the same era. So?

I'll take that "checkmate, I'm out" line as your concession.

You're up to your chin in semen here, so it was wise for you to depart before you drowned.

[midnightpulp]

I also like the way OP ignored HH's post.

Again:

Although I give Barkley the advantage as the superior offensive player, his playoffs production doesn't really surpass Duncan in any metric, offensively, tbh, even if we ignore totals..

Prime and slightly past prime Barkley's playoff Rebound % is 18.9, while Duncan(using the same criteria) has a rate of 18.7..

Assists is Barkley at 18.3%, and Duncan at 18.9%..

Using PER and WS to summarize the box score numbers(which is essentially what the OP is doing, using simple box score numbers), Barkley posted a total 25.3 PER and 0.201 WS/48, while Duncan posted a 25.6 PER and 0.214 WS/48..

So, offensively, their playoff output is virtually the same, once you adjust for pace, as shown by these numbers..defensively, as pulp already pointed out, the difference is the disparity between Marc Gasol and David Lee, tbh..

If you want to include Karl Malone, it's even easier to roast, since Malone had a reputation of choking in the playoffs, similar to David Robinson, tbh..

OP used arbitrary, cherry-picked numbers to form an argument..once you expand the discussion to include actual evidence and facts, Duncan blows Barkley and Malone out of the water..as for Hakeem and Shaq, I'd have Duncan below both in terms of peak play, but ahead of them from a career perspective..

[resistanze]

As I already mentioned, filtering for playoffs is stupid considering the number of playoff games played is so dramatically different for each player.

Duncan 192
Malone 193
Shaq 216
Barkley 123

They're not dramatically different at all, what are you talking about?

The only player with noticeably less playoff games is....Barkley. What doesn't look good for him, unless you're using the "BUT his team!" excuse.

Why was Duncan significantly ahead of Shaq and Malone in many of the stats HH posted, considering their playoff game totals are similar?

[manufan10]

To steal from Cully, boiled down it's:

Duncan 4

TOSB Barkley/Malone 0

teehee

[da_suns_fan]

But Shaq didn't play in the same system or on the same team. David Lee and Marc Gasol also play in the same era. So?

I'll take that "checkmate, I'm out" line as your concession.

You're up to your chin in semen here, so it was wise for you to depart before you drowned.

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

We can go on for another five pages but it wont change the number 30/15 games Duncan has had. OR 40/15 games hes had (he shows up lower than quite a few people there). Or the number of 20/10/2/3 games he had etc.

Blame it on pace if you want, but the statement is undeniably true.

[Sean Cagney]

And you would still take him on his team and his 4 Rings and smile....... Thats all that really needs to be said Suns fan. He is conistency and Longevity! He will put up 20 and 10 while another gets 40 pts and someone else gets 15 boards in a game, but he dominates the game quiety and his longevity (Career) is just crazy. Like someone said as well he is far better a defender than most on that list, he does it on both sides of the ball and without flash so it doesn't get noticed as much. Charles Barkley called him groundhog day, best way to describe Tim.



How many of those so called great games from others lead to rings? Tim had his monster games as well don't get me wrong, but numbers alone do not equate to wins (Kevin Love etc. says hi).

[midnightpulp]

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" REGULAR SEASON games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

We can go on for another five pages but it wont change the number 30/15 games Duncan has had. OR 40/15 games hes had (he shows up lower than quite a few people there). Or the number of 20/10/2/3 games he had etc.

Blame it on pace if you want, but the statement is undeniably true.

And greatness isn't defined in the regular season. Stamp your feet all you want, but that's a fact. No one gives a about a 40-15 game on a Wednesday night in December against the Bucks or something.

I've more than proven Duncan has had more great games (as per my arbitrary definition) than nearly all other bigs in the playoffs.

But continue to place primary importance on the regular seasn. Most NBA fans don't.

[manufan10]

What are the winning percentages in those games? I'm curious to see if those monster games equaled wins for those players or not.

[da_suns_fan]

And greatness isn't defined in the regular season. Stamp your feet all you want, but that's a fact. No one gives a about a 40-15 game on a Wednesday night in December against the Bucks or something.

I've more than proven Duncan has had more great games (as per my arbitrary definition) than nearly all other bigs in the playoffs.

But continue to place primary importance on the regular seasn. Most NBA fans don't.

A great game is a great game. Regardless if happens in December or June.

The fact remains Duncan really didnt have that many great games relative to other greats.

Im claiming victory now.

[da_suns_fan]

What are the winning percentages in those games? I'm curious to see if those monster games equaled wins for those players or not.

Cake.

Number of 30/15 games in which they WON:

1 Shaquille O'Neal C 94
2 Charles Barkley* F 63
3 Karl Malone* F 55
4 Hakeem Olajuwon* 54
5 Tim Duncan F 39

Duncans a distant fifth in that one.

[ambchang]

dsf ignoring me on his dumbass Jordan comments.

Also ignoring double double games as a sign of consistency, and his random use of stats as a "standard".

[midnightpulp]

FWIW, Duncan vs. Shaq in the playoffs. A 30 games large sample size.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...playoffs::none

Both players, one of which who's had quite more of your regular season "great games," in the same environment, playing at the same pace against each other. Granted, Shaq's Suns games brings down his averages, but even if we remove those, both guys play each other to about a wash.

[HarlemHeat37]

Theres nothing else to say. I challenged you to disprove my hypothesis that Duncan hasnt had as many "great" games as the other great Forwards and centers which you have failed to do.

The best youve done is say "its because of pace". Okay, if you want to attribute to the Spurs slow, boring system that a valid argument. But the FACT remains that Duncan hasnt had as many great games relative to the other great players.

I've already proven that Duncan had as many, or more, great playoffs games as the others..

You moved the goal posts to " but he played more games "..

Even if you want to ignore my other arguments, as you have conveniently done the past 2 pages, the central premise of your thread is that Duncan hasn't had as many TOTAL "BIG" GAMES as the other players on your lists..

I've already proven that Duncan does very well on the list of great playoffs TOTAL "BIG" GAMES..you can continue moving the goal posts to "games played" and "supporting casts", but that wasn't your original argument..

[resistanze]

I've already proven that Duncan had as many, or more, great games as the others..

You moved the goal posts to " but he played more games "..

Which is funny because he's played less playoff games than Malone & Shaq but matches/beats them in many 'great' games....