Grizzlies: "Fat" Gasol is the best big man in the game

[LkrFan]

Marc Gasol's scoring efficiency from the field is relatively weak for a C that plays his style of play(he's efficient overall because of his FT shooting, though), despite having a 19% usage rate, which is lower than both Mike Conley and Zach Randolph..

Gasol is essentially the 3rd scoring option on a mediocre offense..

Duncan had a 28% usage rate this year, an extremely high load, yet still produced better offensive numbers, despite Parker's declining play in the 2nd half of the season, and Ginobili being terrible all year..

Duncan's defensive metrics were better, too..let's not ignore the fact that Marc Gasol has the best defensive backcourt in the NBA in front of him, tbh..

Gasol should be in the discussion with players like Griffin, Bosh and Aldridge, rather than Duncan or even current Nowitzki, tbh..

- especially the "current _irk" bolded part.

[LkrFan]

Z-Bo's presence also = Marc Gasol frequently being guarded by the inferior defensive big on the opposing team, tbh..yet still scoring at a relatively weak rate on lower usage..

Story of TD's career. Feast off of players 3-5" shorter than him and he still averaged 25ppg NCE.

[duhoh]

and then you don't seem to see that the spurs system doesn't accentuate individual statistics, yet you use the system argument conveniently for gasol. motion offense son.

[midnightpulp]

I forgot to disagree with this in my original reply. TD + elite rebounder (Z-Bo) = less total rebounds. Agree or disagree?

Maybe one less board. Randolph gets a lot of offensive rebounds, usually off his own misses.

Also, Randolph only played 8 games last year and Gasol didn't break 9 rebounds per game in his absence. Gasol has never been considered a great rebounder. He's solid but not elite. So there's goes that argument that if Randolph was removed from the equation, Gasol would be a double-double machine.

[100%duncan]

Truth hurts. Facts check:

Spurs are 4th in ppg
Spurs are 6th in pace
Spurs are 1st in apg
Spurs are 1st in 3pt%
Spurs are 2nd in FG%
Spurs are 3rd in FT%

In short, the Spurs are an offensive juggernaut. They are no less than 6th in 6 major offensive categories. You think having a good offensive skillet on a great offensive team won't positively impact your numbers? K

Yes it does. Does TD being better than Gasol in every aspect in the game hurt your ass too? I called and like I saw it and you just proved me right by posting that. Stuppid got.

[JohnnyMax]

That boy soft like his brother

[midnightpulp]

Story of TD's career. Feast off of players 3-5" shorter than him and he still averaged 25ppg NCE.

Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Kurt Thomas, and now Dwight Howard are 3-5" shorter?

I've seen you spout that nonsense before and it's total bull . The opposing team always put their best interior defender on Duncan. You're probably just thinking about the series with the Lakers where Phil would put Horry on TD because Shaq's fatass often got crucified by Duncan down on the block. Horry's craftiness, quickness, and length actually offered more resistance than Shaq's girth.

[100%duncan]

Story of TD's career. Feast off of players 3-5" shorter than him and he still averaged 25ppg NCE.

What's the story now got? That ing old man at 37 is feasting off on two ing 7 footers yours truly.

[LkrFan]

Maybe one less board. Randolph gets a lot of offensive rebounds, usually off his own misses.

Also, Randolph only played 8 games last year and Gasol didn't break 9 rebounds per game in his absence. Gasol has never been considered a great rebounder. He's solid but not elite. So there's goes that argument that if Randolph was removed from the equation, Gasol would be a double-double machine.

Disagree with the bolded. He'd be competing with an elite rebounder - unlike how he is with his next best rebounding teammate (6.4 rpg for Tiago ter).

Agreed about Marc not being an elite rebounder, but considering Memphis is 3.2 rpg from being #1 in the league, he must be getting the job done (statistically they rank 11th).

[LkrFan]

What's the story now got? That ing old man at 37 is feasting off on two ing 7 footers yours truly.

Sad, actually.

[LkrFan]

Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Kurt Thomas, and now Dwight Howard are 3-5" shorter?

I've seen you spout that nonsense before and it's total bull . The opposing team always put their best interior defender on Duncan. You're probably just thinking about the series with the Lakers where Phil would put Horry on TD because Shaq's fatass often got crucified by Duncan down on the block. Horry's craftiness, quickness, and length actually offered more resistance than Shaq's girth.

I'll admit to the bolded. The last part of that sentence is bogus though. Pop would hide Duncan on players like Horry, AC Green, or Horace Grant - or Shaq would foul him out by halftime. In crunch time, when 485lb Shaq was tired (and couldn't make a FT to save his life) this is when Duncan guarded Shaq.

[midnightpulp]

Disagree with the bolded. He'd be competing with an elite rebounder - unlike how he is with his next best rebounding teammate (6.4 rpg for Tiago ter).

Agreed about Marc not being an elite rebounder, but considering Memphis is 3.2 rpg from being #1 in the league, he must be getting the job done (statistically they rank 11th).

But Duncan, at 37, is still an elite rebounder. So Randolph would also have to "compete" with him. Works both ways.

[midnightpulp]

I'll admit to the bolded. The last part of that sentence is bogus though. Pop would hide Duncan on players like Horry, AC Green, or Horace Grant - or Shaq would foul him out by halftime. In crunch time, when 485lb was tired (and couldn't make a FT to save his life) this is when Duncan guarded Shaq.

Yeah, it'd be a great basketball move to put your best player on their best player who is unguardable and risk fouling/tiring him out.

And the last part isn't bogus. Shaq could never guard Duncan. Too slow. Duncan couldn't guard him either, which is why they didn't bang on the block for any extended period of time back in the day.

[whitemamba]

pulp stop hiding ur ing sig

[LkrFan]

Yeah, it'd be a great basketball move to put your best player on their best player who is unguardable and risk fouling/tiring him out.

And the last part isn't bogus. Shaq could never guard Duncan. Too slow. Duncan couldn't guard him either, which is why they didn't bang on the block for any extended period of time back in the day.

PJ didn't hide prime Kobe against AI, or RA, or LBJ... IJS.

[midnightpulp]

PJ didn't hide Kobe against AI, or RA, or LBJ... IJS.

Yeah he did. All the time. Kobe would only guard those players at the end of quarters or for like the last two minutes of the game. Rick Fox was the 3 peat Lakers heavy lifter as far as perimeter defense went. And that's okay. It's ill advised to wear your best offensive players out having them guard the opposing best player.

Besides, equating perimeter defense with interior defense is re ed. Much easier to pick up fouls banging on the inside than it is on the perimeter. And if you played basketball, you know post defense is more tiring to play and wears you out much quicker than perimeter defense. All the latter requires is good stamina, while the former requires you to use your entire body.

[Brunodf]

People still feeding the troll

[Arcadian]

Truth hurts. Facts check:

Spurs are 4th in ppg
Spurs are 6th in pace
Spurs are 1st in apg
Spurs are 1st in 3pt%
Spurs are 2nd in FG%
Spurs are 3rd in FT%

In short, the Spurs are an offensive juggernaut. They are no less than 6th in 6 major offensive categories. You think having a good offensive skillet on a great offensive team won't positively impact your numbers? K

You seem to be making the argument that "the Spurs system makes Duncan's stats better." But the Spurs system is based around Duncan. Therefore, it could be that Duncan makes the system as good as it is. If that were the case, it would reverse the direction of causality and undermine your argument.

[midnightpulp]

People still feeding the troll

He's not a troll actually. Lkrfan has a terabyte worth of re ed takes that he believes in 100% and we're always happy here at Spurstalk, being the charitable people we are, to help him further his basketball education.

One positive to emerge is that he's finally seemed to understand how pace can inflate stats. So I was happy to see him try to use that argument, even if he did misapply it.

You're learning, Lkrfan. You're learning.

[unforeseen]

Fat Gasol is better than Howard and Pussy Gasol combined.

[Johnny RIngo]

I'll admit to the bolded. The last part of that sentence is bogus though. Pop would hide Duncan on players like Horry, AC Green, or Horace Grant - or Shaq would foul him out by halftime. In crunch time, when 485lb Shaq was tired (and couldn't make a FT to save his life) this is when Duncan guarded Shaq.

This was posted on another forum. It's an analysis of the Spurs defense on Shaq:

I decided to go over the 01, 02, 03 Lakers/Spurs playoffs series to see who was primarily guarding Shaq and how effective they were in guarding him. I didn't go over every possession, but I decided to look at every FGA and turnovers forced that Shaq had in those games. I didn't get every game from that 01-03 span, but I did get a majority of them.

vs. Duncan: 21-49 (.429), 8 TOV (5 of them charges/offensive fouls drawn)

vs. Robinson: 31-63 (.492), 5 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Rose: 15-27 (.556), 2 TOV (2 offensive fouls)

vs. Other big men (Bryant, Willis, Walker): 6-12, 1 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Guards: 0-3

vs. open shots with no one guarding Shaq: 11-13

I also kept track of double teams both before the shot and double teams during the shot (sometimes both happened). I didn't count double teams that had no effect on the shot or soft double teams.

vs. Duncan: 11 before shot, 14 after shot, 20 total double teams (35.1% double team%)

vs. Robinson: 10 before shot, 15 after shot, 23 total double teams (33.8% double team%)

vs. Rose: 4 before shot, 5 after shot (33.3% double team%)

vs. other big men: 2 before shot, 3 after shot, 3 total double teams (23.1 double team%)

In 2003, The Spurs made a concerted effort not to double Shaq. They even mentioned it in one of the broadcasts where Popovich told them that they didn't want anyone else to beat them. In the other years, Shaq got a decent amount of double teams and very few triple teams. Most of the double teams I saw were soft and had no effect. Shaq was making his move by the time the double came.


Now here are the stats for who was guarding Shaq in the games Duncan/Robinson played (Robinson missed 1 of the games). This is why I started the project. I wanted to see if Robinson was the sole Shaq defender or if the Spurs took turns defending him.

Duncan 31.0%
Robinson 46.9%
Rose 19.3%
Willis 2.1%
Walker 0.7%

I didn't include any wide open shots or times when guards defended him. Usually, Robinson started off the game vs. Shaq. Then Rose would come in and guard Shaq and take turns with Duncan. Usually in the middle of the game, Duncan and Robinson took turns guarding Shaq even in clutch situations.

Duncan looked better vs. Shaq and the numbers back it up. There were plenty of instances where Shaq couldn't back down Duncan. But Shaq did dunk on him quite a bit. Shaq dunked on everyone from the Spurs.

[Johnny RIngo]

PJ didn't hide prime Kobe against AI, or RA, or LBJ... IJS.

If that's true why was Tyronn Lue defending Iverson in the Finals?

[midnightpulp]

This was posted on another forum. It's an analysis of the Spurs defense on Shaq:

I decided to go over the 01, 02, 03 Lakers/Spurs playoffs series to see who was primarily guarding Shaq and how effective they were in guarding him. I didn't go over every possession, but I decided to look at every FGA and turnovers forced that Shaq had in those games. I didn't get every game from that 01-03 span, but I did get a majority of them.

vs. Duncan: 21-49 (.429), 8 TOV (5 of them charges/offensive fouls drawn)

vs. Robinson: 31-63 (.492), 5 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Rose: 15-27 (.556), 2 TOV (2 offensive fouls)

vs. Other big men (Bryant, Willis, Walker): 6-12, 1 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Guards: 0-3

vs. open shots with no one guarding Shaq: 11-13

I also kept track of double teams both before the shot and double teams during the shot (sometimes both happened). I didn't count double teams that had no effect on the shot or soft double teams.

vs. Duncan: 11 before shot, 14 after shot, 20 total double teams (35.1% double team%)

vs. Robinson: 10 before shot, 15 after shot, 23 total double teams (33.8% double team%)

vs. Rose: 4 before shot, 5 after shot (33.3% double team%)

vs. other big men: 2 before shot, 3 after shot, 3 total double teams (23.1 double team%)

In 2003, The Spurs made a concerted effort not to double Shaq. They even mentioned it in one of the broadcasts where Popovich told them that they didn't want anyone else to beat them. In the other years, Shaq got a decent amount of double teams and very few triple teams. Most of the double teams I saw were soft and had no effect. Shaq was making his move by the time the double came.


Now here are the stats for who was guarding Shaq in the games Duncan/Robinson played (Robinson missed 1 of the games). This is why I started the project. I wanted to see if Robinson was the sole Shaq defender or if the Spurs took turns defending him.

Duncan 31.0%
Robinson 46.9%
Rose 19.3%
Willis 2.1%
Walker 0.7%

I didn't include any wide open shots or times when guards defended him. Usually, Robinson started off the game vs. Shaq. Then Rose would come in and guard Shaq and take turns with Duncan. Usually in the middle of the game, Duncan and Robinson took turns guarding Shaq even in clutch situations.

Duncan looked better vs. Shaq and the numbers back it up. There were plenty of instances where Shaq couldn't back down Duncan. But Shaq did dunk on him quite a bit. Shaq dunked on everyone from the Spurs.

dat , Lkrfan!

Masterful work, Ringo.

[LkrFan]

[100%duncan]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand all he can do now is just laugh, folks.

/thread.