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Since that isn't the rule book, thanks again for showing there is nothing about intent in the rule book.
What are you going to whine about next?
Oh yeah -- me.
I don't agree with it either, but I don't think I did a good job of showing you the article that I suspect is the one you read. Here's a link to the article that has one Yahoo reporter quoting another one, making the quote look way more official than it should have been. It's a step below a White House reporter quoting another White House reporter as "sources inside the White House". It's pretty clearly an attempt to deceive, and I wouldn't even have caught it but I was searching for it for this conversation. I didn't intend to directly question your recollection for any reason other than I had not seen any kind of statement from the NBA about it. Yahoo looked like they were trying to create one just to fill space in the Allen flop story.
The league can review whatever they choose to. Unlike the officials, they aren't constrained in any way by the rulebook. For instance, the refs may very well have gone back to look at Allen's reaction, noticed he was faking, and been unable to apply the flopping rule because they're only allowed to use replay to review the foul itself. That the reaction prompted the upgrade of the foul in order to go back and review it is kind of a comical irony of the ridiculous way the rules clash with each other.
The NBA rulebook states as follows:
The league didn't have to review that one for long. If one of the refs on the floor had clearly seen that Allen hadn't hurt his face, they probably could have called it then. I'm fairly certain that the refs think they have enough to worry about during a playoff game to try to determine in real time whether someone faked contact and are happy to leave it to the league office to police."Flopping" is defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact.
Since that isn't the rule book, thanks again for showing there is nothing about intent in the rule book.
What are you going to whine about next?
Oh yeah -- me.
Its all good.
i have become more interested in rules ever since Stern rather haphazardly levied the fine for leaving players at home versus Miami. So it is interesting to discuss apparent contradictions, or the rule of law invented at the time of an incident lacking precedence.
That definitely covers the "league not constrained by rules" thing I mentioned earlier.
Are you actually claiming the rules laid out at nba.com aren't official enough for you? Or having problems deciphering the plain English on the page? Which is it?Rules and regulations: Flagrant Fouls
By Official NBA RulesPosted Apr 18 2010 7:54PMThe following is a summary of rules and regulations regarding flagrant fouls, technical fouls, elbow fouls and other player conduct issues.
I'm claiming that isn't the rule book.
Keep Googling -- you might be smart enough to find the actual rule book.
Then again, there is ample evidence to the contrary.
Wow. You're reaching new levels of stupid. If nba.com has the rulebook paraphrased on their website and claim its the official nba rules I think its safe to assume they are.
No.
There is an NBA rule book.
That's not it.
Keep Googling.
Keep being stupid. It fits you perfectly.
Then there is the possibility you found the rule book and are simply afraid to post the flagrant foul rule.
Which is it?
Too stupid to find it or too afraid to post it?
I strongly disagree with that sort of thinking. The rules should remain the same, and the fouls should be called in the same way every game from preseason to the last second of the Finals. There should not be a numbing of calls in the playoffs. There should not be a tighter focus on getting calls correct in the playoffs. Implications of the game have nothing to do with refereeing, that's the team's problem.
The real issue is that referees give more weight to a call made on the floor than the same play being reviewed by 3 refs using several different angles and slow motion. It's important that the foul be called correctly, and when that gets tainted because of the implications of the foul, the game is no longer a fair contest because you have the league enforcing situational gradient on foul calling. We see that already in almost every game anyhow where they allow all the contact imaginable in the 1st half and they tighten down on it later. If fouls were always called in the same way, there would not be any reason to consider the referees as part of the game.
In the NBA, I think more than any other professional sport, the refereeing becomes a major factor in the outcome of the game. They are so involved with the game, they basically control the momentum and they can stop or shift it at their whim. All they have to do is call a foul at an inopportune moment to stop momentum. We see it all the time and we just ignore it, but if you factor that stuff in, all the blatantly blown calls, they changed the game. Now the contest has become more about using those calls to your advantage, tricking the refs to get your way. The refs are now a large part of the game. That's why they are treated like celebrities. I cannot tell you a single NFL ref, don't know any names.
:
You asked for "a link" regarding the explanation of the rules... I supplied one for you.. from the official site of the nba since you sqwauked about the first link. You didn't mention anything about a rulebook. And apparently think everyone has links handily bookmarked for all your asssanine requests. It's obvious you don't place any integrity in the nba.com website. That's fine by me. I helped you out and supplied answers to your questions in a timely and complete manner. Yiu should show me some respect by at least thanking me.
1. The league reviews all flagrant fouls. There is no rule saying that they have to, but they do.
2. The official rule book for 2012-2013 is here: http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/me...-Rule-Book.pdf
3. The league also publishes "guidance" for referees, with explanations and examples to help referees know the preferred interpretation of certain rules. They used to publish it on the public website, but I'm not sure they do anymore. But the "rules" on the NBA website include some of the same type of information, to help fans understand how rules are interpreted. We tend to quote that web page a lot - I certainly do - but it isn't the official rule book.
4. This is all the official rule book says about flagrant fouls. It is minimal and vague:
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be
unnecessary, a flagrant foul—penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the
offender and a team foul is charged to the team.
b. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be
unnecessary and excessive, a flagrant foul—penalty (2) will be assessed. A personal foul is
charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.
5. Note that the actual rules reference how the contact is "interpreted". It was very clearly left up to the discretion of the officials. And while the league has issued guidance, to help flagrants be called more consistently, it still comes down to interpretation every single time. And that is probably the biggest reason the league reviews them all individually.
No matter how specifically the league tried to spell out the requirements for a flagrant, people would still dispute the calls. "That wasn't really a wind-up", "He didn't really follow through", "That contact was no different that what so-and-so did earlier", etc. It's a judgment call, and just like charge/block calls, it will always be bitterly disputed.
It's not "official" but it surely is credible for most people looking for interpretation of the rules. Note I said "most".3. The league also publishes "guidance" for referees, with explanations and examples to help referees know the preferred interpretation of certain rules. They used to publish it on the public website, but I'm not sure they do anymore. But the "rules" on the NBA website include some of the same type of information, to help fans understand how rules are interpreted. We tend to quote that web page a lot - I certainly do - but it isn't the official rule book.
LOL @ you quoting point #3 but not point #4
Talks about how the "rulebook" is minimal and vague. Obviously it wasn't much help for both officials and fans alike seeking guidance. And the nba obviously saw the need for to have them fleshed out furthur. Only a complete childish asshat would dismiss them as incosequential and throw a fit about it. Especially after whining for hours for somebody to post "a link".
I asked for a link to the rule.
You failed to provide one.Thanks again.
I'm concluding you are unable to find it and unwilling to post it since you know there will be nothing about intent in the rule.
nba.com's official website explaining the rules isn't official enough for me..
Seriously, post the flagrant foul rule from the NBA rule book.
Bet you can't do it.
Why do you think the NBA ruled not to suspend Dwayne Wade for the elbow he threw to the head of a Stevenson?. Rule 12A sec V L (3) states an elbow foul which makes contact above shoulder level is an automatic ejectionI asked for a link to the rule.
You failed to provide one.Thanks again.
I'm concluding you are unable to find it and unwilling to post it since you know there will be nothing about intent in the rule.
Don't know.
Was it called at the time?
I bet every time a situation happens refs are waiting for CD to judge it and inform them directly through earphones
You lose.
no, but neither was Tony Allen's flopping penalty which was retroactively called and enforced with the appropriate punishment. So did the league make a judgement on intent?
Don't know.
I don't suppose you could post the flagrant foul rule, could you?
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