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  1. #276
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I've already illustrated, by cite and actual study, the costs of retraining teachers both economically and by the impact it has on student performance and achievement.

    Leave unions out of this already. It has nothing to do with teachers, as a population, being under or over compensated.

    Yes, WC, I understand there are abuses of tenure. I also understand that statistically, this number likely never crosses the threshold of noise.
    And this is going to change teacher turnover rates... how...

    Part of you claim is that the turnover rates are higher than what the national average really is. Therefore, you are talking about a small degree of cherry picked locations. What is it when we remove retirement and mobility?

  2. #277
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Why remove retirement and mobility? Both require retraining of replacements. No, they should be included as well...even though the figures I sourced didn't included them.
    Indeed, with the upcoming wave of boomer retirements, teachers are going be even scarcer than they already are.

    ". The national teacher turnover rate has risen to 16.8 percent."
    ". In No Dream Denied (2003), NCTAF reported that 287,370 teachers left teaching during the 1999-2000 school year (220,582 left for other pursuits and 66,788 retired). Recently released data from the 2003-04 Schools and Staffing Survey show that this attrition is worsening. During the 2003-2004 school year, 332,700 left teaching (245,429 left for other pursuits, and 88,271 retired)6. Bright young teachers are leaving at an unsustainable rate"
    http://nctaf.org/wp-content/uploads/...licy-brief.pdf
    Follow the footnotes, WC. The sources are valid.

    Once you acknowledge the turnover rates, then you look for the underlying reasons.

    Five Reasons Teacher Turnover Is on the Rise
    Money and respect are only two things quality educators want more of.
    http://www.takepart.com/article/2011...-turnover-rise



    This is not the first time these studies have been linked, WC. That you cannot connect the dots suggests that you simply do not want to.


    And again, this makes the case that teachers are under-compensated as a population. Notice I use actual cites and studies to back up my position.

    Teacher Turnover: A Conceptual Analysis
    http://cnx.org/content/m18916/latest/
    Last edited by TeyshaBlue; 05-29-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #278
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?
    Where did I make such a claim?
    um, I didn't say you made any claim. I just wanted to ask you what you thought the answer was. If you don't know or can't figure it out, just say so.

  4. #279
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    In this thread:

    WC asks for proof.

    People provide proof.

    WC says that's not enough proof.

    People provide more proof.

    WC complains about an excess of proof.
    - Proof that this thread is par for the course.

  5. #280
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live.
    So you have walked it back.

    Quite frankly, I don't think you can support even that more limited statement. The amount of data you would have to present to prove even that much more limited statement is pretty large, and you haven't even defined your terms yet.

    The arguments that the US in general doesn't pay its teachers enough are far more compelling, IMO.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...vVMT_blog.html

    Finland is home to such a coherent national system of teacher education. And unlike in the United States, teaching is one of the top career choices among young Finns. Teachers in Finland are highly regarded professionals — akin to medical doctors and lawyers. There are eight universities educating teachers in Finland, and all their programs have the same high academic standards. Furthermore, a research-based master’s degree is the minimum requirement to teach in Finland.
    They sink a LOT of resources into their teachers, regard them highly, pay them highly, and shockingly enough, that produces results.

    In all the bustle of what needs to be done for schools, this is emerging as an underlying theme in a lot of formal acedemic research.

    The other thing you probably wouldn't like is that we need to throw more money at the problem to fix it. More socialism.

    Until you can wrap yer head around that, be ready for more studies show how the socialists educate their kids better than we do, and by just about any measure, they do.

  6. #281
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Until you can wrap yer head around that, be ready for more studies show how the socialists educate their kids better than we do, and by just about any measure, they do.
    Now you've done it.

  7. #282
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I won't act like an insane person, so I will not ask this question over and over.

    How is better compensation going to improve education?

    Maybe your kids teacher is under compensated in your specific area and job skills. But... union pay is a one-size-fits-all approach. How can you increase their compensation without doing the same to others in the same union?

    Some places have an excessively high turnover. Just not the national average. I'll bet new teachers go to the bad schools where openings are always present as teachers exercise their mobility. Would you entertain the idea of higher pay for bad neighborhood schools, without having to increase the compensation of the better job assignments?
    Better pay for one thing, does increase retention.

    The question you should be asking yourself is:

    How much does the turnover COST the economy?

    As noted it has some pretty definite costs, and those are quite measurable.

    Once one gets close to a rough answer for that, we can then ask ourselves how much more can we pay to avoid those added costs?

    If we pay out another $1 of gross pay, how much cost is avoided?
    For that matter, how much do you improve the quality of people attracted to the job in the first place. Finland gets its best and brightest to teach kids, as noted.


    Can money buy good teachers?
    by Dan Bobkoff
    Marketplace for Monday, February 4, 2013Story.Being a public school teacher has never been the road to wealth. But there’s a public charter school in New York City that’s paying its teachers six figures.
    Kristen VanOllefen was teaching music in New Jersey when she read about the school on a friend's Facebook post.

    "And, I said, who gets paid $125,000?” VanOllefen remembered.

    After a few years, and a grueling hiring process, VanOllefen can now say she does.

    The school is called The Equity Project Charter School, or TEP for short. Most of its students are low-income and from the Washington Heights neighborhood. Since it opened four years ago, it’s been at the forefront of an experiment to see if paying top teachers top-dollar leads to a better education.


    Zeke Vanderhoek, TEP’s founder and principal, says he would have paid teachers even more, but “candidly, it was the maximum amount that would keep our budget in the black.”


    Vanderhoek wants to prove that if you've got great teachers, little else matters, and, you can afford them, even on a public school budget. "Teachers are the critical lever in student achievement, in student growth. If we’re serious about this, let’s pay them what they’re worth,” Vanderhoek says.

    But that strategy has its own costs. For now, TEP is a just a group of red trailers. The kids walk outside between periods.

    There are no small classes, and there aren't laptops on every desk. Vanderhoek hopes the school moves to a better building some day. But, to him, what matters is having top teachers in the classroom, so that’s where the money goes.

    In Kristen VanOllefen’s music class, there are also lessons in vocabulary and math. And Van Ollefen's job doesn't stop at the classroom. Last year, she also administered state achievement tests. This year, she has a different additional job. And that’s part of the secret to TEP's high pay: Most teachers are doing the work of, well, two teachers.


    TEP saves money by not hiring the kind of support staff other schools have. There are no subs utes. That makes for long, demanding days. Casey Ash, for instance, is both the 8th grade math teacher and the assistant principal. “I certainly don’t think it’s the right fit for everybody,” Ash says.

    Judith LeFevre learned that lesson the hard way. She spent most of her teaching career in Arizona, where she was highly regarded, but the pay was lousy. “After 30 years, I was still making just over $40,000,” she said.


    So she applied to TEP. During the year-long interview process at TEP, she was observed in the classroom several times. Many applicants also submit videos of their teaching, or samples of student work showing major improvements.

    LeFevre was finally hired to teach special education, and serve as the dean of discipline. Expectations were high. She soon found that her Arizona skills weren't as effective with students in New York.

    After her first year, she wasn’t asked back.

    “I think the big unanswered question is 'gee, what would’ve happened the second year, now that I had those skills, and had made that improvement?'” she says.

    But for TEP founder Zeke Vanderhoek, there’s no time to wait. Teachers must bring their A-game on day one, or else.

    “We give our master teachers one year to prove themselves,” Vanderhoek says.

    Teachers are judged on classroom management and student test scores. They're also evaluated by other teachers. Vanderhoek says about a quarter of them don't make it to the second year.

    Mic e Fine studies urban education at the City University of New York. She says she’s “a little worried about sustainability of the model. [TEP] might, in fact, be getting highly qualified educators, but either they’re burning out, or it’s not working very well, or they’re dissatisfied," she said.

    Teachers at TEP acknowledge the stress, but many insisted it’s worth it. And they commend the quality of their colleagues.

    Fine says she doesn't expect the school to become a national model, even though it may work well for this one community in Washington Heights.

    And even that isn't clear yet. TEP hasn’t even been open four years. And while student test scores are creeping up, it’s too early to declare it a success.

    This year, TEP’s first class of eighth graders will head off to high school. In a few years, we’ll know better if their highly paid teachers will have a lasting effect on their lives.
    http://www.marketplace.org/topics/ec...-good-teachers


    Thety have been at it for a few years. This pretty much cuts to the heart of the subject.

  8. #283
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I think it is exciting to see all the charter innovation in the country. We are learning a LOT about what makes good schools, and the ulative nature of knowledge means that we will get to the point where we will know what works and what doesn't.

  9. #284
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Now you've done it.
    OH yeah, I used the "s" word.

    :stirpot

  10. #285
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Soon as people wake up the unregulated capitalism we have today is going the way of the socialism of the old Soviet Union...

    WELCOME to today's 'socialism'

    Bernie Sanders: Something's Not-So-Rotten in Denmark
    by Sen. Bernie Sanders


    Danish Ambassador Peter Taksoe-Jensen spent a weekend in Vermont this month traveling with me to town meetings in Burlington, Brattleboro and Montpelier. Large crowds came out to learn about a social system very different from our own which provides extraordinary security and opportunity for the people of Denmark.

    Today in the United States there is a massive amount of economic anxiety. Unemployment is much too high, wages and income are too low, millions of Americans are struggling to find affordable health care and the gap between the very rich and everyone else is growing wider.

    While young working families search desperately for affordable child care, older Americans worry about how they can retire with dignity. Many of our people are physically exhausted as they work the longest hours of any industrialized country and have far less paid vacation time than other major countries

    Denmark is a small, genous nation of about 5.5 million people. The United States is a melting pot of more than 315 million people. No question about it, Denmark and the United States are very different countries. Nonetheless, are there lessons that we can learn from Denmark? ................(more)
    The complete piece is at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-be...ushpmg00000037

    Not quite the nightmare bogeyman wing-nut socialism....

  11. #286
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I think it is exciting to see all the charter innovation in the country. We are learning a LOT about what makes good schools, and the ulative nature of knowledge means that we will get to the point where we will know what works and what doesn't.
    Charter schools get to 'cherry-pick' students and they still do a generally inadequate job at passing standardized testing...There are exceptions of course, just as there are exceptions in public schools...in general, the majority of students would rather do a million other things than study for a math, science or history test..and the state is heading away from tests were kids can 'cram' for....today's test require much deeper thinking than the standardized test most people who read this forum took....

  12. #287
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    WC, how exactly would you quantify a teacher's worth? Raw test score data? Percentage of improvement from year to year?

  13. #288
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    WC, how exactly would you quantify a teacher's worth? Raw test score data? Percentage of improvement from year to year?
    There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

    Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.

  14. #289
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

    Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.
    Most employers would disagree with you on that.

    I will come back to it, as slogging your way through grad school is NOT easy by any stretch. That is part of the reason why employers place a premium on higher education. If you can be organized and motivated enough to get the degrees, that says a lot.

  15. #290
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Charter schools get to 'cherry-pick' students and they still do a generally inadequate job at passing standardized testing...There are exceptions of course, just as there are exceptions in public schools...in general, the majority of students would rather do a million other things than study for a math, science or history test..and the state is heading away from tests were kids can 'cram' for....today's test require much deeper thinking than the standardized test most people who read this forum took....
    That is not quite fair. Charter schools themselves are not THE answer, but they do allow for laboratories in which to test solutions and theories. As long as they aren't outright harmful to their kids, then I don't see testing what works and what doesn't as a bad thing, do you?

  16. #291
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    There are different ways of doing it, each with their own drawbacks. Even a method with flaws would be better than wage increases by time in.

    Again, as long as there is no method of rewarding those who deserve it, I am not game to pay more than the least qualified. Now don't come back with level of education. Education doesn't mean in the real world, unless you are capable of applying it.
    Surely, there's some sort of informal metrics being used right now?

  17. #292
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Surely, there's some sort of informal metrics being used right now?
    I'm sure there is. I'm also sure there is a better way for rating teachers than I could come up with. I have the wrong background.

    Would you agree teachers should get some kind of performance based pay? Maybe the current step pay and a performance pay? Maybe even pay bonuses by location. Have like a set extra $100 a week for the bad schools nobody wants to teach at, when they can move to a different school/position?

  18. #293
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I'm sure there is. I'm also sure there is a better way for rating teachers than I could come up with. I have the wrong background.

    Would you agree teachers should get some kind of performance based pay? Maybe the current step pay and a performance pay? Maybe even pay bonuses by location. Have like a set extra $100 a week for the bad schools nobody wants to teach at, when they can move to a different school/position?
    I do indeed. I am for across the board pay increases, with steep stipends for failing schools. I also want a blanket of social safety nets to cover all the out of school that gets in teh way of learning. This is what the socialist countries do well.

    In return, I would damn well expect teachers to produce good results, and if you can't then be shown the door, seniority or no. I would agree that any union that got in the way of getting rid of ty teachers should be squished like a bug. They should be the ones deeply involved in setting the standards though, as long as they were adequate. Input, but not final say-so.

  19. #294
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I do indeed. I am for across the board pay increases, with steep stipends for failing schools. I also want a blanket of social safety nets to cover all the out of school that gets in teh way of learning. This is what the socialist countries do well.

    In return, I would damn well expect teachers to produce good results, and if you can't then be shown the door, seniority or no. I would agree that any union that got in the way of getting rid of ty teachers should be squished like a bug. They should be the ones deeply involved in setting the standards though, as long as they were adequate. Input, but not final say-so.
    If you like those socialist country ideas so much, why not move to one?

  20. #295
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    smh

  21. #296
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If you like those socialist country ideas so much, why not move to one?
    I may indeed do so.

    The fun thing is that the most socialist countries tend to have sovereign investment funds that partially fund the goverment, and provide benefits that keep taxes lower than they would otherwise be.

    Knee-jerk, boring cliches aside, though do you think teachers should be paid more in return of performance measures?

  22. #297
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    "teachers should be paid more"

    a LOT more, as to attract better quality, but requires BETTER, more education, 3-year apprenticeship before getting tenure and benefits. Being a K-12 teacher should be a difficult goal to be highly valued and prized.





  23. #298
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    "teachers should be paid more"

    a LOT more, as to attract better quality, but requires BETTER, more education, 3-year apprenticeship before getting tenure and benefits. Being a K-12 teacher should be a difficult goal to be highly valued and prized.
    I like the apprenticeship approach. I only had to do one year, my sr. year in college. I've always felt that one year was too short. I can't see any particular reason why we couldn't align college curriculum with a 2 year student teaching program for the Jr/Sr Years. I'm talking about an apprenticeship before getting certified. Tenure should be stricken from the lingo, imo.

  24. #299
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I like the apprenticeship approach. I only had to do one year, my sr. year in college. I've always felt that one year was too short. I can't see any particular reason why we couldn't align college curriculum with a 2 year student teaching program for the Jr/Sr Years. I'm talking about an apprenticeship before getting certified. Tenure should be stricken from the lingo, imo.
    Here's something I actually agree with you on.

  25. #300
    on instagram, str8 flexin DUNCANownsKOBE's Avatar
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    I actually kinda agree with WC on teacher's unions. There's a big enough gap between good teachers and bad teachers where teachers unions are counter productive in some areas. Maybe that's oversimplified, but the Chicago teachers unions that went on strike over whether or not teachers should be evaluated really put a sour taste of teachers unions in my mouth.

    I also think pay should be structured somewhat based off what the teacher is teaching. A high school teacher teaching A.P. chemistry should make more than the one teaching freshman English (aka reading comprehension for dummies).

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