Teachers

[TeyshaBlue]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.

If you had at least a room temperature IQ, you would modify that argument to: "Teachers are adequately compensated." That's at least an arguable point. But then, you would have to admit your earlier position was incorrect. You're much to small to do that.

[RandomGuy]

LnGrrR...

I have always likes you, but you are turning into a royal lib in front of my eyes. I don't make up numbers that I post, which you seem to imply. Would you at least admit that I do normally link my material? Just because I don't in active conversation all the time when mul asking, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Now...

If I was asked at the time the conversation was active, I would have provided the link the numbers from post 129 came from.

Post #129:
Now. Here is another year of the same type study:



Link attached to the graphic.

According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?

[RandomGuy]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.

Pages and pages of nothing. (fires up copy/paste motor)

[RandomGuy]

[redacted as unnecessary]

[RandomGuy]

According to the US Department of Education, teachers who leave the profession during their first three years is about 8.5%...

Reading fail. Look again.

[RandomGuy]

So?

Many of us haven't seen a raise for a few years.

I don't know about your state, but in many places, teachers are overpaid for the work required. Teachers have a far better benefits package than most tax payers supporting their salaries. Most government employees unions get over on the government too easily because the government doesn't have the same bottom line businesses have. Need more money? Just siphon more from that tax payers...

I'm sorry, until teachers accept the fact that they are over compensated for their jobs, I have no sympathy for their whining.

Prove teachers are over-compensated.

Supporting data, and definitions. Your claim, your burden of proof.

Bull has been called. Can you walk the walk, or are you gonna run away from this one?

They make over $100 k and are complaining?

looks[like] you ran away from your statement.


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post6586853

You are the ignorant one.

I live in Oregon. I have been hearing of the ups and downs of the system for decades.

Prove teachers are over-compensated.

Supporting data, and definitions. Your claim, your burden of proof.
...

EDIT

This is about the fourth time I have tried to get Wild Goober to back his up.

No nice. I will just assume he has run away from this. Probably a good call on his part.

LOL...

You guys get so worked up so easy....

So excuse me for calling you guys morons, incompetent, etc... But if the shoe fits...

I went to see what this link said. You wonder why I never believe a word you liars say.
And you call me a troll for calling you guys out on your lies...

[8 or 9 more posts from WC]

btw, you haven't even sniffed making a case for teachers being overcompensated, incompetent or stupid.

Yes I did.

Supply and demand.

Make the case, idiot. 3 words don't quite cut it.

Yes, I know. You are too stupid to understand supply and demand, so I would have to write an informative paper on the topic.

Sorry, not going to waste the effort on a jackass like you.

Dumbass. I've forgotten more about education than you'll ever know. .
You won't waste the effort because you can't ing make the case. Admit it coward and stop obfuscating. RG called you on it pages ago. You've yet to even state a premise other than "supply and demand". Idiot. It's not about what the market (this is public education, dumb ) will bear.

Make the case for overcompensation.

You fail to accept my viewpoint. Right or wrong, it is my viewpoint that teachers are not underpaid when they don't have a shortage of teachers.

See Supply and Demand.

Again, teachers are stupid if they complain about the wages they get, but don't find a better job or somehow get better wages. maybe the union contracts are holding them down because of the least common denominator worker? How many times have unions rejected merit based salaries for teachers?

Too stupid for more income... Collectively...

people like you are real idiots, when they need a link on the internet, to prove something. Especially when it is blatantly obvious.

please, you can't even back up your bull about teachers being overpaid.

...

you look just like ol' Cosmored.

Is that what you are shooting for?

Or are you gonna walk it back a bit, and maybe admit you might have been wrong?

Did I say overpaid? I meant over compensated, but pay is part of that. Supply and demand.

Paste away... Supply and demand...

You guys simply will not accept my answer, so YOU!

Now, make the case for teachers being incompetent, over compensated and stupid. Go ahead. We're all waiting.

I already did. Sorry that you didn't understand. Is it because you are a teacher?

Ex Teacher. And no you didn't outside of tossing out "Supply and Demand", which is not exactly cutting it.

Hmmmm...

Are you saying they aren't getting qualified teachers at the rate of pay they give?

Again, of that 8.5% that leave the profession within 3 years, how much money would it take to reduce that by half?

How are you going to stop mobility, which is around half of the turnover rate?

I won't ask you about the retirees again. i will assume you agree teachers should be able to retire.

Why did you leave? why are you part of the problem?

In this thread:

WC asks for proof.

People provide proof.

WC says that's not enough proof.

People provide more proof.

WC complains about an excess of proof.

LnGrrR...

I have always likes you, but you are turning into a royal lib in front of my eyes. I don't make up numbers that I post, which you seem to imply. Would you at least admit that I do normally link my material? Just because I don't in active conversation all the time when mul asking, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Now...

If I was asked at the time the conversation was active, I would have provided the link the numbers from post 129 came from.

Post #129:
Now. Here is another year of the same type study:



Link attached to the graphic.

Finally we get to "they don't really leave the teaching profession in large numbers, so they must be overpaid".

We have a weak sauce attempt now.

Yay.

A reasonably good critical thinker could now identify if this evidence is sufficient to show prove the thesis to any reasonable degree.

How exactly does this support your assertion? Be specific.

[Wild Cobra]

The govt pays them with tax money! WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THE MONEY TO COMPETE?

Compete with whom?

Do we have a shortage of teachers? Just how is paying them more, going to improve education?

[Wild Cobra]

That's not an argument for overcompensation. To distill your point, you claim that teachers are overpaid (compensated). You have yet to make a single, cogent point supporting that. Nothing.

OK then, it's obvious you feel teachers are en led. En led to more than the average parent makes of the students they teach.

How long have you had this en lement mentality?

Why are teachers en led?

[Wild Cobra]

If you had at least a room temperature IQ, you would modify that argument to: "Teachers are adequately compensated." That's at least an arguable point. But then, you would have to admit your earlier position was incorrect. You're much to small to do that.

I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live. I will agree that teachers elsewhere don't get paid and compensated as well as those in my state. Still, as long as the union pay scale is such that merit pay is not the primary reason for individual salaries, I will stick with supply and demand for compensation calculations.

You want collective bargaining, then all can receive what the bottom of the barrel gets. Convince the unions to allow pay by merit, and see the pay scales broaden, and see teachers do better to get that higher pay.

Why should the best of them apply themselves when they see coworkers who are lazy get the same pay? Individual bargaining is a better way to raise quality. Pay cannot raise quality when such inequities are real, and its next to impossible to fire the bottom of the barrel.

[Wild Cobra]

According to this table, what percentage of teachers stay in the profession to the tenth year?

Where did I make such a claim?

[boutons_deux]

Compete with whom?

Do we have a shortage of teachers? Just how is paying them more, going to improve education?

we have shortage of good teachers.

how is paying them less, going to improve education?

[Wild Cobra]

Finally we get to "they don't really leave the teaching profession in large numbers, so they must be overpaid".

We have a weak sauce attempt now.

Yay.

A reasonably good critical thinker could now identify if this evidence is sufficient to show prove the thesis to any reasonable degree.

How exactly does this support your assertion? Be specific.

So many posts to try to pin that my position of overcompensation is due to the numbers leaving. And i will agree with TB, my argument should be "not under compensated."

Sorry Random. Two different arguments going on.

You can call bull all you want. It will not change my answer that as long as we don't have a shortage of teachers, they are adequately compensated to keep a supply of teachers around. What good is paying them more going to do, but entice even more students to go into the teaching profession? There are only limited numbers of positions, and it will increase the numbers of college graduates who cannot find work in the major.

My other argument was the high numbers of teacher turnout were flat out bogus.

You know...

Some people say the definition of insanity, is repeating the same actions and expecting different results. Are you insane by doing after me over and over, and expect that I will change what I say?

[TeyshaBlue]

OK then, it's obvious you feel teachers are en led. En led to more than the average parent makes of the students they teach.

How long have you had this en lement mentality?

Why are teachers en led?

Stop obfuscating and answer the ing question already.

[TeyshaBlue]

Where did I make such a claim?

Stop obfuscating and answer the ing question.

[TeyshaBlue]

I have tempered my argument by stating teachers are overpaid where I live. I will agree that teachers elsewhere don't get paid and compensated as well as those in my state. Still, as long as the union pay scale is such that merit pay is not the primary reason for individual salaries, I will stick with supply and demand for compensation calculations.

You want collective bargaining, then all can receive what the bottom of the barrel gets. Convince the unions to allow pay by merit, and see the pay scales broaden, and see teachers do better to get that higher pay.

Why should the best of them apply themselves when they see coworkers who are lazy get the same pay? Individual bargaining is a better way to raise quality. Pay cannot raise quality when such inequities are real, and its next to impossible to fire the bottom of the barrel.

Yet you never showed how you arrived at your conclusion that teachers are overpaid in your area. The rest of your post is completely irrelevant bull .

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm sorry, until teachers accept the fact that they are over compensated for their jobs, I have no sympathy for their whining.

Ready for some facts whenever you can get around to supporting this.

[Wild Cobra]

we have shortage of good teachers.

how is paying them less, going to improve education?

Neither will. As long as we don't pay and fire by merit, we have a lowest common denominator system. You see it all the time in union jobs. Excellent performance until tenure, probation, etc. is made. Then a significant number of workers in any union job start being slackers.

I am all for paying the best, so much more. I am unwilling to pay more on pay scales based time time in service.

You want better teachers? You have to pay by merit, and let that new supply and demand system work.

[Wild Cobra]

Stop obfuscating and answer the ing question already.

I have answered the question. Supply of teachers going into the profession is not a shortage of the demand. There is no reason to raise wages under such cir stances.

I'll ask you the same question I asked random.

Are you insane, thinking asking the same question over and over will get a different answer from me?

[TeyshaBlue]

never ingmind

[TeyshaBlue]

I have answered the question. Supply of teachers going into the profession is not a shortage of the demand. There is no reason to raise wages under such cir stances.

I'll ask you the same question I asked random.

Are you insane, thinking asking the same question over and over will get a different answer from me?

First off, your initial statement literally makes no sense. I'm not exactly sure what the you're trying to say there.
Second statement is a functional non sequitur since the initial statement has no meaning.
Third...I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate why you think "supply and demand" supports your conclusion.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL...

Look Jackass, I don't have to explain myself. If you don't understand Supply and Demand, then why should I go farther and waste my time?

Union pay scales are often the pay that the lowest quality worker gets. Just that simple.

I'll throw you a tangent though...

No matter what that pay scale is, you will still have the good teachers resenting the bad teachers who are on the same pay scale. Take away the union protection in some cases, and pay by merit. Keep the bottom of the pay scale where it is, or lower it, and increase the top of the scale...

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL...

Look Jackass, I don't have to explain myself. If you don't understand Supply and Demand, then why should I go farther and waste my time?

Look Jackass, you do have to explain yourself since you've yet to make any sense whatsoever with your union drivel. Tell me why my kids teachers are over compensated, or failing that, adequately compensated. Just saying "supply and demand" is not an answer if you cannot construct a cogent illustration or at least cite a study or two underpinning your "facts". If you don't understand your stance, then why should I even consider it?

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not a union guy, in any form or fashion. But your reliance on bolstering your position by wagging around your union teddy bear is telling.

[Wild Cobra]

Look Jackass, you do have to explain yourself since you've yet to make any sense whatsoever with your union drivel. Tell me why my kids teachers are over compensated, or failing that, adequately compensated. Just saying "supply and demand" is not an answer if you cannot construct a cogent illustration or at least cite a study or two underpinning your "facts". If you don't understand your stance, then why should I even consider it?

I won't act like an insane person, so I will not ask this question over and over.

How is better compensation going to improve education?

Maybe your kids teacher is under compensated in your specific area and job skills. But... union pay is a one-size-fits-all approach. How can you increase their compensation without doing the same to others in the same union?

Some places have an excessively high turnover. Just not the national average. I'll bet new teachers go to the bad schools where openings are always present as teachers exercise their mobility. Would you entertain the idea of higher pay for bad neighborhood schools, without having to increase the compensation of the better job assignments?

[TeyshaBlue]

I've already illustrated, by cite and actual study, the costs of retraining teachers both economically and by the impact it has on student performance and achievement.

Leave unions out of this already. It has nothing to do with teachers, as a population, being under or over compensated.

Yes, WC, I understand there are abuses of tenure. I also understand that statistically, this number likely never crosses the threshold of noise.