Spurs Salaries, 2012-2013 Edition

[ABC]

Don't forget roster charges.

That's what my "etc." was for I couldn't remember what it was called. I was going to say "roster cost," but I knew that was wrong.

[Chinook]

I like it. Can the Spurs bid on players that are amnestied using cap space and still use their exceptions?

Unfortunately, no. The Spurs don't technically have cap space unless they are under the cap by a greater amount than their combined salaries, cap holds and available exceptions. So even though their salaries are under the cap, they won't be able to bid.

For normal waivers, a team is allowed to use trade exceptions to claim players in lieu of cap space. I don't know if that's true for amnestied players, though, not that it matters. I think the Spurs can forgo their exceptions to gain more cap space, but that seems like a poor move when you aren't guaranteed to get the player.

However, this also means that there are fewer teams that can bid on players, so that may help the Spurs sign some with their MLE. Though teams who can no longer afford two superstars may decide to bid on players like Gasol in addition to getting one star.

[ABC]

Unfortunately, no. The Spurs don't technically have cap space unless they are under the cap by a greater amount than their combined salaries, cap holds and available exceptions. So even though their salaries are under the cap, they won't be able to bid.

For normal waivers, a team is allowed to use trade exceptions to claim players in lieu of cap space. I don't know if that's true for amnestied players, though, not that it matters. I think the Spurs can forgo their exceptions to gain more cap space, but that seems like a poor move when you aren't guaranteed to get the player.

However, this also means that there are fewer teams that can bid on players, so that may help the Spurs sign some with their MLE. Though teams who can no longer afford two superstars may decide to bid on players like Gasol in addition to getting one star.

Too bad. Thanks for the reply.

[Chinook]

This also affects the Splitter situation. Teams are going to go after him more now than before, because some can't afford to get Howard (Dallas) or Howard and another player (Atlanta) like they thought they were going to be able to. So the Spurs will probably need to lock him up before free agency really gets going. However, now that the Spurs are going to be over the cap no matter what, they don't have to worry about using Splitter's hold to get cap space. Also, even if a team offers Splitter the max, the lack of any real cap increase means the max salary isn't going to rise much. (My estimate is $13.787 Million for players with Splitter's experience.) So the Spurs can match a max offer and stay comfortably under the tax, even after using the MLE and re-signing everyone.

[Richie]

Can still sign a big player if Manu takes the room exception. Barring that, it looks like a slow free agency summer

[ABC]

This also affects the Splitter situation. Teams are going to go after him more now than before, because some can't afford to get Howard (Dallas) or Howard and another player (Atlanta) like they thought they were going to be able to. So the Spurs will probably need to lock him up before free agency really gets going. However, now that the Spurs are going to be over the cap no matter what, they don't have to worry about using Splitter's hold to get cap space. Also, even if a team offers Splitter the max, the lack of any real cap increase means the max salary isn't going to rise much. (My estimate is $13.787 Million for players with Splitter's experience.) So the Spurs can match a max offer and stay comfortably under the tax, even after using the MLE and re-signing everyone.

I like Splitter, but I can't imagine the Spurs paying him max money or anything close to it. He's good, but his skill set is somewhat limited. If he gets an offer they're uncomfortable matching, maybe the Spurs would offer lower starting money, but a fifth guaranteed year?

[Bruno]

A quick look at what Spurs potential cap space could be with a $58.5M cap:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Tiago Splitter cap hold: $7,493,600
Manu Ginobili 2013-2014 salary: X
pick #28 (100%): $893,500

Total: $46,108,128 + Manu's new salary

So Spurs cap space will be $12.4M minus Manu's new salary. If he got $6M, Spurs will have $6.4M to sign a free agent.

Some notes:
- In that scenario, Bonner is waived trough the amnesty provision. If he is just cut, it will take away $1M in cap space. If Spurs keep him with his $4M salary, it's safe to say they will take the MLE road for sure.
- I'm using the 100% figure for the draft pick but it could be 120% which will lowered the cap space by $0.2M or it could nothing if the draft pick is stashed which will increase the cap space by $0.4M because of the min roster cap hold. Regardless of what Spurs do with that pick, it won't significantly change their cap space.
- Spurs don't try to keep Neal in that scenario which, to me, seems like an obvious move after his disastrous western conference playoffs.
- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.

[Chinook]

Thanks for the secondary breakdown, Bruno . Do you know if teams can declare themselves under the cap if they're in an ambiguous place salary-wise like you described here:

- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.

Or is it something that happens automatically and only when a team is fully under the cap?

[Bruno]

Thanks for the secondary breakdown, Bruno . Do you know if teams can declare themselves under the cap if they're in an ambiguous place salary-wise like you described here:

Teams don't declare themselves under the cap. It's just that when they sign a player, they say to the league how they signed him (MLE, LLE, cap space, Bird rights...). The league checked of course if it works CBA wise.

For claimed amnestied players, it's noteworthy that the cap space must be created just after the winning team get the player. For example, if Spurs are $2M below the cap with Bonner still being here, they can make a $6M bid on a player. If they win the amnestied player, they simultaneously amnesty Bonner and get the amnestied player. Off course, it would only work if when Spurs get the amnestied player, they are still in the amnesty window.

And for reminder, Spurs not having the LLE if they use the MLE is because they spend it last season on De Colo.

[ABC]

Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.

I think I understand this, but I'm not positive.

The Spurs could sign Ginobili, Splitter and use the MLE. The order in which they sign players wouldn't matter. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.

Or

The Spurs could 1: sign Ginobili. 2: use their cap space to sign a player or claim a player that is amnestied. 3: sign Splitter and use the room exception. However, it would have to be done in that order. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.

Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).

[Chinook]

I think I understand this, but I'm not positive.

The Spurs could sign Ginobili, Splitter and use the MLE. The order in which they sign players wouldn't matter. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.

Or

The Spurs could 1: sign Ginobili. 2: use their cap space to sign a player or claim a player that is amnestied. 3: sign Splitter and use the room exception. However, it would have to be done in that order. After that they would only be able to sign minimum contracts.

Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).

Pretty much. Although in the second scenario, the Spurs could always renounce Ginobili's Bird rights and sign him after claiming an amnesty player. That may be the better thing to do, since it allows the Spurs to have the flexibility to adjust Ginobili's deal if they need more money for their bid or have some left over after the bid.

Also, there's still the option of sign-and-trades. If the Spurs move De Colo and/or Mills, they'd have one or two small trade exceptions to use in the first scenario. If they S&T Blair or Neal, they may also have TEs. These would allow the team to sign players for above the minimum if they can agree on some compensation to give to the free agent's former team. (Note: There aren't trade exceptions in the first scenario; the Spurs would just get more cap space.)

Also, thanks Bruno for the room-exception reminder. I had made a stink about that very thing a couple of months ago in the free agency thread, and I can't believe I forgot about that now. Do you know if a team that uses cap space can use trade exceptions after going over the cap and using their room exception?

[Bruno]

Is that right? The second scenario is assuming the Spurs have cap space (i.e. they amnesty Bonner and don't make any moves that increase salaries).

Yeah, basically. If Spurs take the cap space/room exception road, there will have an order to follow. That's usually not an issue for teams because you can reach an agreement with a player and then wait to officially sign him. For example, Spurs could reach an agreement with Tiago very early in July and then wait the end of the amnesty period before officially sign him.

Do you know if a team that uses cap space can use trade exceptions after going over the cap and using their room exception?

Trade exceptions count against the cap.

[Fabbs]

Brunski,

Break it down por favor.
If/when Splitter has a monster Finals in a 4-2 Spurs Championship, what do you think other teams will offer Splitter?

I think Splitts has already demonstrated enough that other teams like what he has shown and feel he still has upside in an NBA that lacks big men.
Do you think he will crack 10 mil a year offers? (I know it hinges on his Finals play.)
And the Spurs can match any offer, right?

[Bruno]

[Chinook]

Trade exceptions count against the cap.

Yes, but I mean trade exceptions that are created after the team goes back over the cap. Like if the Spurs go over the cap by a couple of million after using their room exception and then decide to trade Mills for nothing near the deadline. Would the Spurs get the exception? My understanding is that teams aren't allowed to use exceptions (except the room exception) and cap space in the same season. But since the exception is created while the team is over the cap, it wouldn't automatically go away, like it would if Atlanta traded a player this summer. I know it doesn't really matter, but I'm just curious.

[TD 21]

Under your scenario, the Spurs would have less than $4 Million, so with the MLE, they'd be over the cap. I don't know where your $10 Million number came from.

Where I went wrong was forgetting to take into account Splitter's cap hold; I instead looked at his qualifying offer. There's your gap between my $9-10M and Bruno's $6.4M (I agree with his presumption that Ginobili get's $6M).

[Bruno]

Yes, but I mean trade exceptions that are created after the team goes back over the cap. Like if the Spurs go over the cap by a couple of million after using their room exception and then decide to trade Mills for nothing near the deadline. Would the Spurs get the exception? My understanding is that teams aren't allowed to use exceptions (except the room exception) and cap space in the same season.

Yes, they would get an exception. If a teams is above the cap and do a trade that generate a trade exception, they get it regardless of what they have done earlier in the season (like using cap space).

[Richie]

If the cap really is going to be $62.5m next summer, I think the Spurs should bring everyone back and wait until then to give Duncan and Manu one last year.

Give Manu a big contract this year (~$10m) and the veteran minimum the year after. Timmy has a $10m player option next year, he might be willing to opt out and take a smaller salary.

Excluding Timmy we'll have $21m committed to Parker, Kawhi, Green and Joseph + Splitters contract (£7m?). Add in Manu for the minimum and Timmy on a restructured deal ($5m?) and thats enough for at least one max player. I'm not sure if there's any free agents worth a max (assuming we can't get Lebron/Bosh/they doesn't opt out) but it's something to consider

[ABC]

For example, Spurs could reach an agreement with Tiago very early in July and then wait the end of the amnesty period before officially sign him.

This is the part of that scenario that makes me nervous. The Spurs could come to an agreement with Splitter, but if they don't actually sign him, other teams might be willing to make bigger offers later in free agency after they strike out with Howard, etc. You'd hope Splitter would stick to a prior agreement, but...

[ABC]

Although in the second scenario, the Spurs could always renounce Ginobili's Bird rights and sign him after claiming an amnesty player. That may be the better thing to do, since it allows the Spurs to have the flexibility to adjust Ginobili's deal if they need more money for their bid or have some left over after the bid.

Thanks Chinook. That hadn't occurred to me.

[DPG21920]

A quick look at what Spurs potential cap space could be with a $58.5M cap:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Tiago Splitter cap hold: $7,493,600
Manu Ginobili 2013-2014 salary: X
pick #28 (100%): $893,500

Total: $46,108,128 + Manu's new salary

So Spurs cap space will be $12.4M minus Manu's new salary. If he got $6M, Spurs will have $6.4M to sign a free agent.

Some notes:
- In that scenario, Bonner is waived trough the amnesty provision. If he is just cut, it will take away $1M in cap space. If Spurs keep him with his $4M salary, it's safe to say they will take the MLE road for sure.
- I'm using the 100% figure for the draft pick but it could be 120% which will lowered the cap space by $0.2M or it could nothing if the draft pick is stashed which will increase the cap space by $0.4M because of the min roster cap hold. Regardless of what Spurs do with that pick, it won't significantly change their cap space.
- Spurs don't try to keep Neal in that scenario which, to me, seems like an obvious move after his disastrous western conference playoffs.
- Even if Spurs have about the MLE amount in cap space, don't forget they will still have the room exception to have another player while they won't have a LLE if they go with the MLE.

You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?

[Captivus]

You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?

What's Diaw value now? More than $5mm?
Ill say 99% he stays.
EDIT: Maybe he prefers a longer contract if he can get one.

[SpursSerb]

If he opts in,we can still trade him during the season.He's expiring could be a nice bait.

[Bruno]

You also use the assumption Diaw opts in. How likely do you think that is? Also, that would directly impact the cap space (so if he opts out, your number goes from 6.4M in CS to 11M) correct?

I think it's very likely that he won't opt out. He isn't having a great year and his back issue would be very concerning for a team willing to give him a long term contract. Diaw opting out would add $4.2M in cap space (there is a min roster charge to count in that case).

[SpursDynasty21]

To sum it up, Spurs should have between $22M and $28M in cap space next summer.

That should leave the team with plenty of flexibility. When will Kawhi Leonard need a long-term deal?