what I hope is the first nail in the coffin of libertarianism

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I agree, centrists have completely vacated the GOP which is, I hope, an important step in the eventual collapse of the party. Let the social retrogrades form their own party, or failing that, let them have the corpse of the GOP and let's see what the fiscal concervatives/centrists can put together.

Interesting take that I happen to completely agree with.

[RandomGuy]

As have those that are in favor of it.

People don't like it because it has changed drastically since they voted for it. That was the most detailed report I could find for you. Have you found anything saying the high speed rail will be beneficial to CA?

I have not, nor have I looked for such a study. Kudos to you for providing the study, when asked, I appreciate it.

I would assume the rail authority has done some financial projections that are more current.

To be clear:

I am not *for* this specifically, although I think the advantages of rail over airtravel are enough to make me want to spend a bit more on rail capacity for transportation than simply throwing more money into freeways, airports, planes and so forth, just because that is what we have always done.

Rail can be built to go straight into the center of a city, without regards to air travel corridors, and they sure don't charge you by the bag to travel, since trains are pretty much built to haul heavy things. A dedicated passenger rail line would thus offer a benefit of diversifying transportation options.

There appear to be arguments for and against, and I do find the arguments for spending dollars on rail transit a bit more compelling than "more of the same" at the moment.

[Homeland Security]

I'm sure that having a Dem accomplish this is very important to you. Go Go Team Red!

I agree, centrists have completely vacated the GOP which is, I hope, an important step in the eventual collapse of the party. Let the social retrogrades form their own party, or failing that, let them have the corpse of the GOP and let's see what the fiscal concervatives/centrists can put together.

The fiscal conservatives/centrists will end up as the leading coalition in the Democratic Party after the GOP declines into irrelevance as a white nationalist party and the progressives/socialists split off from the Democrats to form the new second party.

[TSA]

I have not, nor have I looked for such a study. Kudos to you for providing the study, when asked, I appreciate it.

I would assume the rail authority has done some financial projections that are more current.

To be clear:

I am not *for* this specifically, although I think the advantages of rail over airtravel are enough to make me want to spend a bit more on rail capacity for transportation than simply throwing more money into freeways, airports, planes and so forth, just because that is what we have always done.

Rail can be built to go straight into the center of a city, without regards to air travel corridors, and they sure don't charge you by the bag to travel, since trains are pretty much built to haul heavy things. A dedicated passenger rail line would thus offer a benefit of diversifying transportation options.

There appear to be arguments for and against, and I do find the arguments for spending dollars on rail transit a bit more compelling than "more of the same" at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I love trains. I take the train from N.County San Diego down to Petco park almost every weekend. I don't like the idea of spending billions and billions of dollars to zip around from Palmdale to Bakersfield.

I've heard rumors about a possible train from Orange County to Vegas, using the old freight tracks. Now that is something I could get behind as the drive back from Vegas to CA is a .

[boutons_deux]

(regional) rail transport is another huge area where Old Europe with its Eurostar, channel tunnel train, French TGV, etc has US left way behind. That happens when for-profit transport/fuel corporations buy influence to block compe ors, like Southwest did to block Texas TGV.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol
The US is currently #1 in freight tonnage, just ahead of China. Ye Olde Europe is a distant 5th, with about 13% of the US tonnage.

Europe, with it's comparatively underdeveloped roadways, do carry more passengers. If only they had an Interstate System....

[RandomGuy]

The fiscal conservatives/centrists will end up as the leading coalition in the Democratic Party after the GOP declines into irrelevance as a white nationalist party and the progressives/socialists split off from the Democrats to form the new second party.

I can see that happening.

I think the fiscals are moving into the Dems now, taking them to the center.

[RandomGuy]

Don't get me wrong, I love trains. I take the train from N.County San Diego down to Petco park almost every weekend. I don't like the idea of spending billions and billions of dollars to zip around from Palmdale to Bakersfield.

I've heard rumors about a possible train from Orange County to Vegas, using the old freight tracks. Now that is something I could get behind as the drive back from Vegas to CA is a .

We've spent billions and billions in subsidized roads an airports to be able to zip around (as much as traffic in some cities zips)

Thing is that we have been underinvesting in transportation of all kinds for about 20 years now, and are beginning to have to pay the piper for that.

Traffic in LA and Austin, the collapse of bridges, and airport congestion, are simply the canary in the coalmine.

THere were people who questioned the buildign of the freeway system as a boondoggle at the time Eisenhower built his freeway system.

The initial cost estimate for the system was $25 billion over 12 years; it ended up costing $114 billion (adjusted for inflation, $425 billion in 2006 dollars[4]) and took 35 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

The freeways that enable the commerce we all depend on went over time and over budget, and were opposed by the same language as is being used in teh "scam".

THere is a reason why I tend to treat such concerns with some large amount of skepticism. Benefits of such projects don't manifest themselves in a readily apparent fashion, and the costs are easy targets for people who can't think of things in complex ways.

[RandomGuy]

lol
The US is currently #1 in freight tonnage, just ahead of China. Ye Olde Europe is a distant 5th, with about 13% of the US tonnage.

Europe, with it's comparatively underdeveloped roadways, do carry more passengers. If only they had an Interstate System....

Germany does. They just tax the out of gasoline to build and maintain it. We subsidize ours.

Perhaps Nono has a point after all....

[TeyshaBlue]

Germany is certainly the European outlier.

[Wild Cobra]

Germany does. They just tax the out of gasoline to build and maintain it. We subsidize ours.

Perhaps Nono has a point after all....

No idea what it is today, but when I lived in Germany, the tax was DM 1.01/liter. That was about $2.50/gal. I was there from '86 to '92.

[Th'Pusher]

We've spent billions and billions in subsidized roads an airports to be able to zip around (as much as traffic in some cities zips)

Thing is that we have been underinvesting in transportation of all kinds for about 20 years now, and are beginning to have to pay the piper for that.

Traffic in LA and Austin, the collapse of bridges, and airport congestion, are simply the canary in the coalmine.

THere were people who questioned the buildign of the freeway system as a boondoggle at the time Eisenhower built his freeway system.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

The freeways that enable the commerce we all depend on went over time and over budget, and were opposed by the same language as is being used in teh "scam".

THere is a reason why I tend to treat such concerns with some large amount of skepticism. Benefits of such projects don't manifest themselves in a readily apparent fashion, and the costs are easy targets for people who can't think of things in complex ways.

This is a nice post

And the bold is particularly descriptive of TSA among other regular posters...

[johnsmith]

Well, other than the fact that RG's main complaint over nuclear power is the cost of construction.

[coyotes_geek]

100 million....yikes...who was it?

Some joint venture. Zachary & Parsons being the big names.

[TSA]

This is a nice post

And the bold is particularly descriptive of TSA among other regular posters...

The butthurt runs deep.

I just linked the most unbiased comprehensive study you'll find on this high speed train.

Prove me wrong on this, PM your daddy Fuzzy if you need help.

Always funny when someone from out of state knows what is really going on.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Germany is certainly the European outlier.

Sure but at the same time it makes a good case study.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The butthurt runs deep.

I just linked the most unbiased comprehensive study you'll find on this high speed train.

Prove me wrong on this, PM your daddy Fuzzy if you need help.

Always funny when someone from out of state knows what is really going on.

Hung up on me much?

unbiased
comprehensive

[TSA]

The link is public fuzzy, you too can read it.

[Th'Pusher]

The butthurt runs deep.

I just linked the most unbiased comprehensive study you'll find on this high speed train.

Prove me wrong on this, PM your daddy Fuzzy if you need help.

Always funny when someone from out of state knows what is really going on.

butthurt. God bless you are a stupid human being.

1. Bobafet (troll)
2a. WC
2b. TSA

Smarter than the troll, but likely not the person behind the troll and a little smarter than WC, but still stupid as .

[TSA]

Would you like to discuss the report or just throw insults?

[Th'Pusher]

Would you like to discuss the report or just throw insults?

Tough decision tbh. Discuss the 16 year old study that I didn't bother to look at or throw insults? Can I get back to you on that?

[TSA]

You don't bring much to the table these days.

[RandomGuy]

Well, other than the fact that RG's main complaint over nuclear power is the cost of construction.

Has been. Lots of promising new technologies have popped up that would make that a lot cheaper.

New technologies have changed the calculus for me.

[RandomGuy]

Positive benefits of high-speed rail:

Less reliance on airports and roads.
Increased real estate values near stations, with the attendant growth in population.
Businesses able to hire from a wider geographic area for talent.
Businesses able to move to areas economically unfeasible.
Workers able to afford housing father from work.

FWIW, this is what I came up with off the top of my head. Basically it is the kind of hard to define economic synergy that comes with any transportation infrastructure spending.

[TSA]

http://www.dailynews.com/opinion/201...rain-editorial

The people in charge of high-speed rail in California put out a new business plan last week. New-ish, anyway. Gov. Jerry Brown’s pet project, the one everybody calls the $69 billion bullet train or the $68 billion bullet train? The estimated construction cost has shrunk — to $67 billion.

To be precise, the estimated cost to build the route linking the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas is down from $68.4 billion in the previous business plan to $67.6 billion now, mainly because of lower inflation.




Not much of a change. Which is the story of this fresh snapshot of where the California High-Speed Rail Authority thinks it stands: Some numbers are up, others down, but nothing here makes the proposal any less wasteful and speculative than it has appeared since voters discovered the truth about what they set in motion.

The business plan’s forecasts contain some sort-of-good news: Those construction costs are down a bit ($800 million is a bit when seen next to $67.6 billion). More riders are expected, and fares are estimated to be lower than in the 2012 plan.




And it includes some sort-of-bad news: Although there might be more riders, they’d be taking shorter trips than once thought, not the 200-mph express trips from L.A. to the Bay Area that gave the idea its futuristic charm. More riders will mean more trains and higher overall operating costs, up about 14 percent in the period from 2022 to 2060. And lower fares would mean the system would generate about 10 percent less revenue in 2040.

Operating costs up, revenue down. Yet the High-Speed Rail Authority still claims the bullet train will sustain itself and even become such an attractive financial proposition that private investors will clamber aboard.




Don’t forget how much these plans have changed since California voters passed Proposition 1A in 2008. Notwithstanding last week’s adjustments, the price tag is higher and the construction timeline longer even though the route is shorter, the ticket prices are higher and ridership projection is lower, and the legal and environmental obstacles are towering.

Forget private investors down the line if Brown and the rail authority can’t nail down the financing now. The failure to do so has put bond money and federal help in jeopardy.




The new business plan notes the bullet train “is facing — and will continue to face — many challenges.” Another thing that hasn’t changed much.

The plan is up for public comment for 60 days before going to the Legislature. Take advantage (via hsr.ca.gov). Tell the state its plans still don’t add up.