Spurs: Will Danny green winning FMVP hurt Duncan's legacy?

[Josepatches_]

Lol

If spurstalk is so wrong then I can't understand why you are here .

[Manuismyhomeboy]

If you wanna compare records the ultimate tell all would be Duncan's teams teams never missing the PO's and Kirby's team issuing once and barely sneaking in twice!

[King Nupe]

If you wanna compare records the ultimate tell all would be Duncan's teams teams never missing the PO's and Kirby's team issuing once and barely sneaking in twice!

Kobe's also never lost as a 1 seed to a 8th or 7th seed has he? Kobe's never been up 2-0 in a series only to get backdoor swept has he?

[Manuismyhomeboy]

That's because Kirby was being carried by a HOA big man next to him. The years between trading Shaq and Pau those Lakers teams were horrible!

[midnightpulp]

Only on Spurstalk does a Media award like MVP put Lebron over Kobe....

Nope. Most of us still have Lebron behind Kobe. But we acknowledge that Lebron will probably go down as the better player (this series could change everything, though).

Only on Spurstalk does Duncan who's never defended his championship get put over Kobe

Single players don't win championships. Repeats are team accomplishments.

Only on Spurstalk does 2 top 10 GOATS (Shaq and Kobe) hurts only ONE of them....

And only a Kobe fan would downplay the immense advantage if was for Kobe to play alongside one of the greatest players of all-time for half his career.

Only on Spurstalk does Duncan having less achievments and Records still put him over Kobe

Regular season "scoring" records. Duncan has more playoff achievements and records (he even has more playoff triple doubles than Kobe ).

Only on Spurstalk does Duncan playing with the Same coach and team his entire career put him over Kobe

That's actually a positive for Duncan. Illustrates his coachability and team first mentality.

Only on Spurstalk does Duncan who needed more HOF players to win Less Championships still put him over Kobe

Not any of them are a top 10 great. And Duncan never played alongside a prime David Robinson.

[Arcadian]

preparing to defend yourself from being too butthurt about Duncan winning #5

[Salty]

Series ain't over, but even if Danny does win it it's still::

Duncan - 3
TOSB Kobe - 2

[DAF86]

A pretty strong case can be made that Duncan is the Spurs' finals MVP so far. If the Spurs win game 6 and Duncan is the best player he will get it.

[Amaso]

I know it ain't a popular opinion, but I have always had and will keep Duncan above Kobe even if he doesn't win this year. Kobe's 5 aren't equal to Duncan's 4, and Duncan's 5 will be > Kobe's 5 for the salary reason, Shaq reason, and FMVP reason.

The ONLY people that have Duncan > Kobe are Spurs fans/Kobe haters.

Whether or not it was correct or not, other NBA players and legends had Kobe > Duncan even in 2008 when Kobe only had 3 rings. That margin widened even more dramatically after 2010. The only people that try to claim Duncan is BETTER (not just on even footing) are people who want to stand out. Duncan winning his 5th and tying Kobe will not bump him AHEAD of Kobe in most people's eyes, especially when Duncan seems more like "one of the guys" in this series. He isn't a standout star by any stretch, and really hasn't been since 2008. If you weren't a basketball fan before a week ago, you wouldn't even know if Duncan was a great player or not... although I guess the same could be said about Lebron since he hasn't done anything this entire series.

[HarlemHeat37]

In all honesty, as advanced stats continue growing in the NBA culture(every team has advanced stats guys now, and there are 3 GMs that fit the mold), along with actually using data and facts in your arguments, Kobe's legacy will progressively decline, tbh..

The only arguments in Kobe's favor is blindly citing ring count, along with flashy scoring..

Al-Quobe should enjoy their hollow arguments while they can, tbh..

[midnightpulp]

In all honesty, as advanced stats continue growing in the NBA culture(every team has advanced stats guys now, and there are 3 GMs that fit the mold), along with actually using data and facts in your arguments, Kobe's legacy will progressively decline, tbh..

The only arguments in Kobe's favor is blindly citing ring count, along with flashy scoring..

Al-Quobe should enjoy their hollow arguments while they can, tbh..

And don't forget invoking the opinions of "NBA people."

[HarlemHeat37]

I didn't include that, because when NBA people have explained their reasoning for hyping Kobe, it's usually related to ring count and his flashy scoring skills..

[Arcadian]

The ONLY people that have Duncan > Kobe are Spurs fans/Kobe haters.

On the contrary, the only people that have Kobe > Duncan are Lakers fans. And even some of them know Duncan > Kobe.

[spurraider21]

not at age 37

what does kobe only having 40% of his finals mvp say about his legacy tbh

[Johnny RIngo]

Well, it would be unprecedented. Russell would've won all of his, Magic and Kareem did lose one to Worthy, but worthy is also HOF so it won't count.

24 year old Larry Bird lost the Finals MVP in 1981 to Cedric Maxwell(a role player who was never an all-star in his career).

[AchillesHeel]

Duncan GOAT candidate
Achilles top 20 candidate

[Amaso]

On the contrary, the only people that have Kobe > Duncan are Lakers fans. And even some of them know Duncan > Kobe.

That's just wrong. Whether or not you think they are wrong, the vast majority of the population and former players have Kobe above Duncan. This has been the sentiment since 2008 like I said before, with the overall stance on this matter largely tilting towards Kobe once he got his 5th. Honestly cant remember a single analyst, or NBA player saying otherwise. There's been a couple, not the majority, of people who are the victim of the "now" and saying Duncan is as good/better legacy wise as Kobe but these are the same people who have been saying that Lebron is the "GOAT."

Duncan was my 2nd favorite player growing up, even while the Lakers and Spurs had tons of battles. Even as primarily a Kobe-fan I was willing to put Duncan next to Kobe if he had won his 5th ring this year. The longer this series has gone on, the more and more I remember that Duncan is not that great (right now, not career wise) and is often camouflaged in the Spurs offensive and defensive scheme. I haven't forgot that he hasn't even been a top 10 player in 4 years, and this Spurs team has been Parker's for a long time now. Duncan has such a huge advantage in this series as well since he is essentially the only true big out of the 10 guys on the court.

[midnightpulp]

That's just wrong. Whether or not you think they are wrong, the vast majority of the population and former players have Kobe above Duncan. This has been the sentiment since 2008 like I said before, with the overall stance on this matter largely tilting towards Kobe once he got his 5th. Honestly cant remember a single analyst, or NBA player saying otherwise. There's been a couple, not the majority, of people who are the victim of the "now" and saying Duncan is as good/better legacy wise as Kobe but these are the same people who have been saying that Lebron is the "GOAT."

Duncan was my 2nd favorite player growing up, even while the Lakers and Spurs had tons of battles. Even as primarily a Kobe-fan I was willing to put Duncan next to Kobe if he had won his 5th ring this year. The longer this series has gone on, the more and more I remember that Duncan is not that great (right now, not career wise) and is often camouflaged in the Spurs offensive and defensive scheme. I haven't forgot that he hasn't even been a top 10 player in 4 years, and this Spurs team has been Parker's for a long time now. Duncan has such a huge advantage in this series as well since he is essentially the only true big out of the 10 guys on the court.

How do you figure that when the defensive scheme is built around Duncan anchoring the paint?

Wanna know why James hasn't attacked the paint with wreckless abandon and had his own personal dunk contest? Duncan. That's why.

Camouflaged. Never mind the fact he has the highest +/- on the team:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS.HTM

Not surprised you'd have such a ty take, since you're one of the worst posters here.

[Amaso]

How do you figure that when the defensive scheme is built around Duncan anchoring the paint?

Wanna know why James hasn't attacked the paint with wreckless abandon and had his own personal dunk contest? Duncan. That's why.

Camouflaged. Never mind the fact he has the highest +/- on the team:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS.HTM

Not surprised you'd have such a ty take, since you're one of the worst posters here.

I've RARELY posted here since 2010, and barely posted at all back then (see 700 all-time posts). I don't know how you'd even remember my name.

By camouflaged I merely meant not a "stand out" player. OBVIOUSLY, Duncan is still a good/great defensive player but he is not a dominating defensive player, and clearly not the offensive force he used to be... although his biggest knock has been he was never an offensive juggernaut that all the other all-time greats were. The defensive scheme isn't build around one player, and you should know better than that. Duncan is the anchor because he is protecting the paint, but it's not like Duncan has been the reason why Lebron/Wade have sucked the majority of the series; it's been a combination of Leonard/Green/Diaw/Pop's scheme of laying off of him.

Does Duncan play good help defense? Yes. Has he dominated on the defensive end? No, but he's been very solid.

Duncan is going to have the highest +/- by default since he is the only capable big on the Spurs roster. I cringe every time he has to get his rest. Splitter is one of the worst rotation players on a finals team I've seen in a long time. If you are going to post nearly irrelevant statistics then be more creative. According to your +/- stat Splitter has been better than Danny Green this series.

[midnightpulp]

I've RARELY posted here since 2010, and barely posted at all back then (see 700 all-time posts). I don't know how you'd even remember my name.

By camouflaged I merely meant not a "stand out" player. OBVIOUSLY, Duncan is still a good/great defensive player but he is not a dominating defensive player, and clearly not the offensive force he used to be... although his biggest knock has been he was never an offensive juggernaut that all the other all-time greats were. The defensive scheme isn't build around one player, and you should know better than that. Duncan is the anchor because he is protecting the paint, but it's not like Duncan has been the reason why Lebron/Wade have sucked the majority of the series; it's been a combination of Leonard/Green/Diaw/Pop's scheme of laying off of him.

Does Duncan play good help defense? Yes. Has he dominated on the defensive end? No, but he's been very solid.

Duncan is going to have the highest +/- by default since he is the only capable big on the Spurs roster. I cringe every time he has to get his rest. Splitter is one of the worst rotation players on a finals team I've seen in a long time. If you are going to post nearly irrelevant statistics then be more creative. According to your +/- stat Splitter has been better than Danny Green this series.

Those stats are from the regular season (with an 82 game sample size). I posted them to illustrate that Duncan still has the greatest impact on the floor, and it's because of his defense, so yes, even though Duncan is not the entire defense, which would be a stupid statement to make, he's still the foundation of the Spurs defense, as he always has been. Perimeter defense is much easier to play when you have an all-time great anchor behind you.

Anyhow, I took your "camouflaged" comment to imply that the Spurs are doing things to hide Duncan's deficiencies.

And I'm glad Duncan isn't a "stand out player" in this series. You beat the Heat playing as a team, and to force feed Duncan in the post so he can "dominate" plays right into the Heat's hands. Right now, the Spurs' offense is thriving on passing and rhythm, so to bog it down with the ball-stopping "4 down" offense that was Duncan's bread-and-butter for many years would be a mistake. He might "stand out," since the Heat have no one to check him on the block, but the Spurs would likely lose.

Duncan's playing one of an overall team game and is STILL the Spurs' best defensive player. To me, that's "standing out."

[TDMVPDPOY]

nba ots trying to market tp this year with his mvp run, hasnt done in the finals, yet they still try to market him so he can look legit winning the fmvp when green has outplayed him, same with duncan

nba is a fkn joke giving out awards to idiots who would bend over to them

[Amaso]

Those stats are from the regular season (with an 82 game sample size). I posted them to illustrate that Duncan still has the greatest impact on the floor, and it's because of his defense, so yes, even though Duncan is not the entire defense, which would be a stupid statement to make, he's still the foundation of the Spurs defense, as he always has been. Perimeter defense is much easier to play when you have an all-time great anchor behind you.

Anyhow, I took your "camouflaged" comment to imply that the Spurs are doing things to hide Duncan's deficiencies.

And I'm glad Duncan isn't a "stand out player" in this series. You beat the Heat playing as a team, and to force feed Duncan in the post so he can "dominate" plays right into the Heat's hands. Right now, the Spurs' offense is thriving on passing and rhythm, so to bog it down with the ball-stopping "4 down" offense that was Duncan's bread-and-butter for many years would be a mistake. He might "stand out," since the Heat have no one to check him on the block, but the Spurs would likely lose.

Duncan's playing one of an overall team game and is STILL the Spurs' best defensive player. To me, that's "standing out."

No disagreements there. The +/- stat is still deceiving for the same reason I posted above. Splitter is awful and the Spurs desperately need Duncan on the floor because of that fact.

The main point I'm trying to make is that Duncan is no longer a bonafide star anymore, and no one is surprised if he has very modest games. It's not his fault, he's been in the league for a long time and is very very old. Duncan isn't the reason why this Spurs team is so great, which is in heavy contrast to the 99,03,05,07 teams. He is the 2nd best player, but the Spurs do it as a team like you said. He is basically "one of the guys" right now, and Parker essentially hasn't really stood out either.

Our argument stemmed from the whole Duncan vs. Kobe debate. If you are ALREADY convinced he is better, then I wouldn't change your mind regardless. I am saying this 5th ring hopefully Duncan wins doesn't boost him over Kobe from my perspective, and probably won't for the majority of basketball fans. If you are going to discredit Kobe's ring total by saying he played with Shaq, then you can discredit Duncan by saying he is potentially winning a le without being a top 10 player. If you want to cancel those out, then how does the player who has been dominant for a longer time and have better stats not get the edge?

[midnightpulp]

No disagreements there. The +/- stat is still deceiving for the same reason I posted above. Splitter is awful and the Spurs desperately need Duncan on the floor because of that fact.

The main point I'm trying to make is that Duncan is no longer a bonafide star anymore, and no one is surprised if he has very modest games. It's not his fault, he's been in the league for a long time and is very very old. Duncan isn't the reason why this Spurs team is so great, which is in heavy contrast to the 99,03,05,07 teams. He is the 2nd best player, but the Spurs do it as a team like you said. He is basically "one of the guys" right now, and Parker essentially hasn't really stood out either.

Our argument stemmed from the whole Duncan vs. Kobe debate. If you are ALREADY convinced he is better, then I wouldn't change your mind regardless. I am saying this 5th ring hopefully Duncan wins doesn't boost him over Kobe from my perspective, and probably won't for the majority of basketball fans. If you are going to discredit Kobe's ring total by saying he played with Shaq, then you can discredit Duncan by saying he is potentially winning a le without being a top 10 player. If you want to cancel those out, then how does the player who has been dominant for a longer time and have better stats not get the edge?

That's incorrect, though. Labeling him "One of the guys" suggests he's little more than a role-player, which is obviously not true.

And I would consider Duncan still a star. Still the league's best overall big at 37. Outplayed Howard and Pau Gasol. Outplayed Randolph and Marc Gasol. And is outplaying Chris Bosh in this series.

Personally, there's not many players I would take over this year's Duncan, so for all intents and purposes, he's still top 10 player. Would you really take Dwight Howard or Westbrook (two top 10 players according to the dip media) over Tim Duncan?

On your last point, I disagree that Kobe has better stats (I'll admit he's played longer at an elite level than Duncan in the regular season, though. Duncan was elite from 97-98 to '08 and was elite this year, so that gives him 12 seasons of elite play. Kobe was elite from '00-01 to present). Regular season scoring stats, yes, but what else?

[InK]

Laker fan thinks any decent poster here gives a about anything but winning the championship. And if the Spurs end up winning the only story will be; Duncan and his guys make one last valiant stand and prevail. It's gonna make one of a "greatest of the" era do entaries tbh...

[z0sa]

You sure hope so.