The truth about Manu Ginobili's turnovers

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Maybe his turnovers were lower. His reduced minutes probably contributed to that. But honestly his turnovers this postseason looked to be from poor decisions, bad passing, and bad ball handling. They stood out much worse than a typical turnover. I have always been a huge Manu fan but his poor decision making this postseason was unlike anything any of us were used to seeing on such a consistent basis.

Yet he has more assists and I posted his higher ast% in another thread. That and Miami's iden y on D. Spurs iden y on offense, should tell people everything they need to know. Instead they'll rather use incredibly flawed imagination and use that to grasp at straws when uncomfortable facts stare at them right in their faces.

Turnovers are only one side of the story. Ginobili also shot 40% from the field and 30% from 3 pt land and also shot a lower FT%. So not only did he average more turnovers in the playoffs, his FG%, 3PT%, and FT% all plummeted from his career averages. If that was Kobe or Lebron, Spurstalk would be laughing and taking glee in pointing at how they choked and how finished/overrated they are. Either bring Ginobili back as the 6-7th scoring option for far less money or don't bring him back at all.

He didn't shoot well. Yet is there a possibility that it hurt the team much less than what is being imagined? For starters shooting isn't a main part of his role in the Spurs lead leading create through assists-play as a team always-system. And in one interesting curveball his True shooting pct was better than Duncan's these playoffs.
Not in any way am I saying he is more valuable than our clear MVP Duncan, just throwing the possibility out there that even this poor shooting from Manu isn't enough for him to hurt the team overall on offense when you factor in his huge role in handling and creating with the ball. An area where he has career high numbers. A key area in the offensive iden y that the Spurs team-version of the last two seasons is not a serious contender without. Then the haters only really have the Turnobili-myth to desperately cling on to. But it's a myth being debunked right in front of them.

edit: removed mixed up fga/fgm

[spurraider21]

he played less minutes than he ever did, especially in the first few rounds, so it's no mystery that his turnovers/game were lower than his averages. so were his points, assists, steals, etc. in the finals he had big minutes and committed crucial turnovers. 8 of them in the infamous game 6 that went to OT, and while i thought he played a good game 7 (18 points 6-12, 5 assists, 4 turnovers), all 4 of his turnovers came in the 4th quarter, especially the back to back where he 1) dropped the ball by the sideline 2) on the very next possession whizzed a pass out of bounds.

still, i think the suddenly increased role did play a huge factor in this, and had he not gotten hurt prior to the playoffs, i think he would have played much better. either that, or they had to get him going earlier in the playoffs with the big minutes. the turnovers in the finals mattered so much more because it came against miami. if you turn it over against the grizzlies, lakers, or a team out east like the pacers, it doesn't matter nearly as match as it would against a team like miami or OKC.

still, i thought manu played better than most give him credit for, but after watching game 5 and seeing how well manu played throughout game 7 (outside of that one stretch), there is ZERO doubt in my mind that we absolutely need him back. all the people calling for him to retire or for the spurs to "let him walk" are out of their damn minds and probably weren't old enough to appreciate just how valuable he has been to the team over the years, which would help you see the little things he does that still makes him valuable now

[UZER]

I dont care about shooting. Bad shooting nights happen. my issues were the turnovers.

For those saying to give miami credit for thier D, fine, but somehow the rest of the team only had 5 turnovers in game 6. ill say it again...5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own. I think you guys are giving miamis D too much credit. How many passes were unforced on the pick n roll? How many turnovers did he jump to pass and ended up caught in the air with nowhere to go?

And ive said it before, if pop is seeing that manu cant help himself and turning it over running pnr, its pop job to call off the pnr while manu had the ball. I cant count how many times I predicted a turnover as soon as tim started coming to set the pick. if I can see it, othets can see it, why cant pop see it?

Manu had this rep of being so smart on the court, but obviously thats not the case anymore.

[Capt Bringdown]

12 turnovers in games 6 & 7 just shat over your Manu apologetics. According to Manu fanboi, these are the kinds of games in which he's supposed to shine, because he's so very compe ive, or "He's Manu Ginobili," or some other tedious bollocks.
The excuses never end with Manu fanboi.

[smaka]

Who cares about turnovers/game if he had 8 of them in a game in which we could've rang?

[Gagnrath]

Manu didn't just have the listed turn overs he also had a bunch of passes and plays that put other players on the spurs in a bad position.

[ElNono]

still, i thought manu played better than most give him credit for, but after watching game 5 and seeing how well manu played throughout game 7 (outside of that one stretch), there is ZERO doubt in my mind that we absolutely need him back. all the people calling for him to retire or for the spurs to "let him walk" are out of their damn minds and probably weren't old enough to appreciate just how valuable he has been to the team over the years, which would help you see the little things he does that still makes him valuable now

To put it in perspective, for the series, Tony led the team in assists with 45, Manu was 2nd with 30, and the next best guys were Diaw and Timmy, with 10 a piece...

Sure, he screwed the pooch in Game 6. But overall for the series, Miami played a large role in making sure the Spurs couldn't play their game. They dictated a lot of things, including matchups, and you can only do that when you're a great defensive team. I frankly can't be more proud of how the team fought in that series.

[Brazil]

I dont care about shooting. Bad shooting nights happen. my issues were the turnovers.

For those saying to give miami credit for thier D, fine, but somehow the rest of the team only had 5 turnovers in game 6. ill say it again...5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own. I think you guys are giving miamis D too much credit. How many passes were unforced on the pick n roll? How many turnovers did he jump to pass and ended up caught in the air with nowhere to go?

And ive said it before, if pop is seeing that manu cant help himself and turning it over running pnr, its pop job to call off the pnr while manu had the ball. I cant count how many times I predicted a turnover as soon as tim started coming to set the pick. if I can see it, othets can see it, why cant pop see it?

Manu had this rep of being so smart on the court, but obviously thats not the case anymore.

people giving Miami credit are not saying that Manu didn't have a poor game just saying that Miami is putting a lot of pressure on ball handlers in general and they are the best at doing it. Parker globally did a good job not turning over because dude even bothered by his injury had more legs than Manu to escape pressure and traps. I believe a two years ago Manu would have done a better job and would have taken the opportunity to drive all night long. Issue as most have commented is that Manu has still the vision but has no more the legs to make that tricky pass. Some T/Os were unforced but it was a very physical and intense serie, when u are tired u make this kind of mistake and again give Miami credit for pushing the pace and put our guys in the red, see exhibit a. Tim first half vs. second.

[Bruno]

[DAF86]

I would like to see the usage % from the previous years compared to this one. It surely seemed like Manu turned the ball over a lot more per every touch he had.

[boutons_deux]

"team had 5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own."

yep, no way around that. his inconsistency game-to-game was dumbfounding.

[Sean Cagney]

?
really? 8 turnovers in a single game is not bad for you because in the previus game he didnt had one? really? is that how you think it is?

Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

Manu didn't just have the listed turn overs he also had a bunch of passes and plays that put other players on the spurs in a bad position.

This is very true as well.

[superbigtime]

The guys who want Manu back are blindly hoping that he can turn it around or rebound from the mediocre year and awful postseason he just wrapped up. I used to be annoyed at threads proclaiming he is done and thought they were premature. But nostalgia, hoping, and wishing will not change reality. Manu is as done as burnt steak. I would be okay if he came back in a limited role with a new SG on the roster, but that is not going to happen and Pop will continue to ride a broken horse. It's incredibly frustrating with this guy. He's either injured, recovering from injury, or he mind s himself with his confidence issues. Remember how the team was rolling when manu was injured this season? In the playoffs he seemed healthy enough for once, but his decisions were horrible. The truth hurts. Why would the spurs want a player who plays like he has double vision and is drunk??? It's time to retire.

[TheGreatYacht]

The guys who want Manu back are blindly hoping that he can turn it around or rebound from the mediocre year and awful postseason he just wrapped up. I used to be annoyed at threads proclaiming he is done and thought they were premature. But nostalgia, hoping, and wishing will not change reality. Manu is as done as burnt steak. I would be okay if he came back in a limited role with a new SG on the roster, but that is not going to happen and Pop will continue to ride a broken horse. It's incredibly frustrating with this guy. He's either injured, recovering from injury, or he mind s himself with his confidence issues. Remember how the team was rolling when manu was injured this season? In the playoffs he seemed healthy enough for once, but his decisions were horrible. The truth hurts. Why would the spurs want a player who plays like he has double vision and is drunk??? It's time to retire.

Well said. Time to bring these ppl to reality.

[tmtcsc]

Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

This is very true as well.

Well said. All of it. Lower salary, changed role and lower minutes..And not another word about international play. Give that a rest.

[Agloco]

Exactly. That motherfuc*er is stubborn. He won't admit his mistakes. Sh*t even Tim Duncan blamed himself for the championship failure because of his Game 7 missed hook shot which is totally unfair. Timmy and Kawhi put the Spurs on their backs for Games 6 and 7. I'm not too surprised about Manu's at ude TBH because Argentinians are known to be stubborn and close-minded people.

BTW my old job required me to deal with all types of Hispanic people around the world so I know a lot about cultures. I may be stereotyping but I know people's tendencies better than the average person. LMAO truth my a*s. People like yourself are the ones that are in denial. Manu is past his expiration date. When will reality hit you?

In the running for dumbest post(s) of the year tbh.

[HI-FI]

Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3 ing7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

[UZER]

this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3 ing7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

[TheGreatYacht]

this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3 ing7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

Good points but good luck trying to convince these delusional Manu lovers. They are the most stubborn people I have ever seen on the internet. I think they're worst than the Kobe s and Lebron s calling their favorite player the GOAT.

[HI-FI]

cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

i've said as much, that if his heart isn't into it anymore or if he isn't into a redemptive frame of mind, then it's best to move on. I don't think Manu would want to go out with that being his final memory, but we'll see. All that matters is the price is right.

tbh, i've watched every replay of the Spurs playoff games, but still haven't bothered watching games 6 or 7. i don't think I will for quite some time. my mind is fried from choking it away. in 2012 I blamed the officiating but this was definitely a self inflicted wound. How we clean up and move on will define this organization for a long time.

[ElNono]

[TheGreatYacht]

[Spanklin]

Most Turnovers in NBA History by Player

1. Karl Malone - 4,524

Karl Malone turned the ball over an all-time high of 4,524 times in his 19 year NBA career. He only led the league once in a season in turnovers, and his being number one on the list is mainly because he played so many games in his career. Still, he averaged 3.1 turnovers per game.

For comparison purposes, that is about the same average number of turnovers per game that Dwight Howard has so far in his career.

In the playoffs, Malone averaged 2.85 turnovers per game. A much better rate than he had during regular season play.

2. John Stockton - 4,244

Malone's long-time Utah Jazz teammate, John Stockton, is number two all-time in turnovers with 4,244. Stockton also had a very long career, and that is mainly why he is on this list. Stockton averaged 2.82 turnovers per game, which is the lowest per game turnover rate on this list.

Stockton averaged 2.84 turnovers per playoff game in his career. Just about the same rate as during regular season play.

3. Jason Kidd(notes) - 3,836

So far in his career, Jason Kidd has 3,836 turnovers in his career. Kidd has played in 1,267 games and has averaged 3.03 turnovers per game played. Kidd has led the league twice in turnovers so far in his career, including in 2001-02 when he played for my Nets team.

In the playoffs in his career, Jason Kidd is averaging 3.02 turnovers per game. In both 2002 and 2003, Kidd led my Nets to the NBA Finals. He turned the ball over 146 total times in 40 games in the playoffs over those two years. That's 3.70 turnovers per playoff game. The Nets lost both times in the finals, but we were never sniffing the NBA Finals those two years without the great play of Jason Kidd.

In the 2011 post-season, Jason Kidd has just 25 turnovers in 10 games played. His Dallas Mavericks shocked the NBA by sweeping the two-time defending champion Los Angeles Lakers right out of the playoffs.

4. Moses Malone - 3,804

Moses Malone turned the ball over 3,804 times in 1,329 NBA games. So his turnover average per game was 3.05. Malone was a great playoff compe or, and in the NBA playoffs he turned the ball over 215 times in 94 games. A 2.29 average, which is much better than his regular season average. Clearly, Malone was more careful, and more efficient, with the basketball in the playoffs.

5. Isiah Thomas - 3,682

Isiah Thomas turned the ball over 3,682 times in his career in 979 games played. So he averaged 3.76 turnovers per game. That is the second highest total on this list. Isiah was a bit more careful with the ball in the playoffs (369 turnovers in 111 playoff games), averaging 3.32 turnovers per game.

6. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3,667

Hakeem Olajuwon turned the ball over 3,667 times in 1,238 games played. So he averaged 2.96 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Hakeem turned the ball over 424 times in 145 games, for a an average of 2.92. Just about the same as during regular season play.

7. Patrick Ewing - 3,537

Patrick Ewing turned the ball over 3,537 times in 1,183 games played, for an average of 2.99 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Ewing turned the ball over 345 times in 139 games, for an average of 2.48 per game. So Ewing was more carefull with the basketball in playoffs, but still never won an NBA Championship despite all his guarantees.

8. Magic Johnson - 3,506

Magic Johnson turned the ball over 3,506 times in 906 games played. His average per game of 3.87 is the highest on this list. In the playoffs, Magic averaged 3.66 turnovers per game. A better rate than during regular season play, but still high. All the turnovers didn't stop Magic from winning five NBA Championships, and being named NBA Finals MVP three times.

9. Reggie Theus - 3,493

Reggie Theus was a pretty good NBA player, who turned the ball over a lot. Theus had 3,493 turnovers in 1,026 NBA games, for an average of 3.40 turnovers per game. He also averaged 18.5 points and 6.3 assists per game. Theus scored 19,015 points in his NBA career, but is unlikely to ever make the Basketball Hall of Fame. He finished his NBA career playing for the Nets, and I remember him as a player in love with his looks.

10. Charles Barkley - 3,376

Charles Barkley turned the ball over 3,376 times in 1,073 NBA games. So he averaged 3.15 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Barkley averaged 2.87 turnovers per game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-8448675

Can you translate this rubbish into TOV% and give a breakdown of A:T ratios so it's actually meaningful input?

Also, Josh "Smoove" Smith's TOV% in the playoffs was 14.6 and 11.4 a year ago vs. Ginobili's 100 (19.4 really) and 19.8 last season. Ginobili is a post-season plague; sign SMOOOOOOOOOVEE!!!!!!!

[ElNono]

lol troof

[therealtruth]

Defense wins championships, MIA has a great one, and that made adjustments within the series. Pop was out-coached.

Pretty much Pop is unfortunate Spoelstra learned from '11 is ready to make adjustments. I am tired of Pop's adjustment of starting Ginobili and hoping it works. The only time it worked was in '05. He's got to learn how to make everyone an offensive threat to respond to matchups. The playoffs are all about matchups. The only way to counter bad matchups is by forcing your own. We weren't going to win a championship by TP beating Lebron's defense. We've got to learn how to attack the Chalmers and Mike Miller's on defense. The irony is we attacked matchups in game 5 and it worked.